Coronavirus, immunity, and vaccines (part 2)

00:00 Hey and welcome to Politics and Science, I’m your host John Barkhausen. This week we return to part two of our conversation with Ray Pete. This was recorded on the 24th of March 2020 and we are discussing the coronavirus COVID-19 which has caused a lockdown in the United States in many areas due to its expected high contagion rate and potentially very serious mortality rate. So I hope you find this show informative, it’s not intended as medical advice, it’s just a independent analysis of what’s going on. Ray Pete has a PhD in biology from the University of Oregon, he specialized in physiology and hormones. This newsletter is also available at RayPete.com. You can read many of the archive newsletters and I believe you can also subscribe to get 01:00 on his mailing list for new newsletters which come out every other month. And now here’s the show. Thanks for coming back on Politics and Science today Ray, I’m always a pleasure to talk to you and we’re in the midst of this coronavirus so-called pandemic that’s been declared by the World Health Organization and the CDC and everybody is having a hard time and is very scared about what’s going on. I just listened to a podcast today with a New York Times reporter talking to an epidemiologist saying that it’s going to be very bad and we’re not taking enough across the board measures, it’s too piecemeal that the states are doing it individually and there needs to be some strong federal action to make sure everybody is staying home and behaving themselves and not getting close enough to transmit the coronavirus. 02:05 I wonder what your take is on that. I still am not convinced that anything special is happening. Could we talk about the German virologist Wolfgang Vodarg? No we didn’t yet. Well he is one well-known expert in pulmonology and viruses and as of the last time I checked on his website he still wasn’t convinced that anything different from previous years is happening. He showed that in previous years from 5 to 15 percent of the lung disease, infectious disease was caused by some type of coronavirus and so far this one hasn’t really been proven 03:10 to either be much more virulent or much more infectious but that is yet to be determined but they’ve jumped to the conclusion that it is both more harmful and spreads faster but you can’t find that in the evidence according to Vodarg and another German well-known pulmonologist and virologist named Bakhti, sounds like a Hindu name, K-H-T-I, I think it says similar things. He says that the country is causing very considerable damage economically and harming especially older people by the measures they’re introducing without any real evidence that anything special 04:19 is happening and another well-known, mostly epidemiologist John Ioannidis has various positions at Stanford. He says this might be one of history’s greatest evidence fiascos because they’re talking about just fragments of evidence and drawing huge conclusions and then taking unprecedented political economic actions against no clear scientific evidence. Could you spell the German epidemiologist and the pulmonologist that you’ve mentioned at the beginning just so people can look up their evidence? The first one was Wolfgang of Vodarg, last name W-O-D-A-R-G and I think the second guy 05:29 just named, last name is spelled B-A-K-H-P-I. And then you said the guy at Stanford, John Ioannidis, I-O-A-M-M-I-D-I-S. And they’re saying that the Trump administration isn’t doing enough. I’ve always been considered crazy for pointing out that Trump in many ways has been less harmful than the so-called progressives like Obama that he tends to be withdrawing from wars, for example, and I think I’m inclined to see his reluctance to go ahead with war on the virus as another virtually to know everyone considers that crazy. 06:34 The Pentagon wanted to go back into Iraq heavily in retaliation against a couple of soldiers getting killed and to use the virus as an excuse, an argument against renewing the war in Iraq. So even though he’s been being criticized again for everything he does against the grain, so far I think he’s justified by the evidence. Yeah, in these cases, it’s too bad he doesn’t do himself any favors in his social behavior. Yeah, it’s too bad he isn’t a pleasanter personality to do some reasonable things. Yeah, and he has sort of the personality of a gangster, and at least he sounds like one to me. 07:36 But I think you’re right. He has an isolationist tendency when it comes to wars, and I’m all for that myself. Yeah, and he proposes to stop the climb down on society by Easter, which he’s being criticized for again that the so-called health experts are saying that’s fully dangerous to consider restoring freedom in just two weeks. Yeah, I mean, I can understand why people are scared if you listen to any news at all. It’s just one dire warning after the next. What do you make of the reports from Italy where people over 65 aren’t being allowed to have a ventilator, and so people are doing triage, and some people are being basically told they’ll have to die? I saw a little video from a hospital in Bergamo, and it looked like there were stuffing people 08:42 in the oxygen tents and putting oxygen masks on them. And if people come in with a minor respiratory ailment under 70 or 80 or 90 years old and they get put into a pure oxygen atmosphere, that’s exactly the wrong thing to do, but it’s what almost all the hospitals in the world are doing, thinking they need oxygen, they’re having trouble breathing, so give them pure oxygen. But carbon dioxide is anti-inflammatory, and when you give them pure oxygen five times more than normal, you’re tremendously displacing the natural balance of carbon dioxide, which is anti-inflammatory stuff in our breath. 09:42 Several good research projects have found that if you hypoventilate people who are having some problem in the hospital like surgery, slight hypoventilation to let the CO2 build up reduces inflammation and produces much better outcomes overall, because inflammation is such a passage in any kind of sickness, and especially in this particular virus infection or any lung infection, the symptoms are basically inflammatory. The antiotensin system, the interferon system, which turns on other inflammatory agents, 10:42 is to mean all of the defensive reactions triggered by these respiratory infections amplify inflammation, and that causes the congestion, constriction, swelling, exudation of serum into the lungs instead of a balanced moisture economy in the lungs, the serum and proteins in the blood ooze out into the lung space and interfere with breathing. But anything you do to increase inflammation is going to increase that pneumonia tendency and general sickness, so oxygen and many of the virus cycle chemicals, they’re giving 11:42 greatly intensify inflammation. One of the reasons old people are so susceptible for different studies, about 85%!o(MISSING)f the infected proven infected people have almost no symptoms of infection, and the main ones who react badly and get very sick or die are mostly the very old people who already have some kind of degenerative circulatory or inflammatory kind of disease, heart disease, stroke, kidney disease and so on. The changes of aging that cause the circulatory problems are essentially overactivity of the immune 12:50 system, sort of a variation on the autoimmune thing, but it’s a general tissue degenerative process that exaggerates the inflammatory processes. In one study where they gave a given type of coronavirus known, they were intended to produce common cold symptoms, and they put this stuff in the volunteers’ noses, and they found that the people with pre-existing inflammatory problems were the ones that reacted more seriously to the virus, and studies in mice, they find that the given virus does very little damage to the young animals, the older the animal is for the more mature immune system, the more harmful the virus is. 13:58 So in this situation, the so-called immune defenses are really the instrument by which the virus is damaging the organism. So it’s the reaction of the organism to the virus? Yeah, the successful virus, which these are, succeeds by, if possible, causing something like chronic diarrhea and chronic cough if the person stays well enough to go around living normally, but coughing, that’s good for the virus to spread. So a successful virus doesn’t kill many of its infected hosts, it causes them to spread the virus. 15:05 Yeah, I was going to ask you that, it would make sense for the longevity of the virus not to kill its host. So if you’re already inflamed and the virus comes along and attacks you, attacks your cells, then you’re much more likely to have an overreaction, an overimmune reaction, because that reminds me socially or politically what we’re doing right now, if what you’re saying is correct, then we’re having an overreaction to the threat of this virus, which could potentially cause a lot of damage to our society. Yeah, it already is causing unemployment and it’s being taken as an opportunity. Bernanke and Yellen proposed that the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department 16:12 join up so that the taxpayers will be made responsible for everything the Fed does, and that they will then bail out big corporations at their choice. But what it leads to is super corporations guaranteed by the government and the taxpayers, but no guarantees to the employees of middle-sized and small companies. So it’s like pushing towards a total monopoly and all of the proposals that I’ve seen lead in that direction, giving money to bail out the big banks and corporations, which is like a war against small business. Yeah, that’s right. Naomi Klein has written about this extensively in her book Disaster Capitalism, 17:16 where she cites a lot of examples of this in the past, and this seems like a combination of disaster capitalism slash fascism, because I think the definition of fascism is combination of corporate and federal power. Yeah, exactly. Except that as it’s going, it bypasses some of the nastiness of Hitlerism and Mussolini’s fascism and goes right directly to giving orders around the world to stop protests, interfere with elections, and so on. Like the yellow vests in France aren’t able to go into the streets as they’ve been doing for a year, so they are allowed to put their vests out on the balcony or in their windows 18:22 as protest, but basically it’s already established total quiescence and control. Yeah, and it’s very effective if you make everybody very afraid, then it’s not just government force like Hitler was trying to use or Mussolini, it was pure pressure. Yeah, much, much smoother and more effective. We start policing ourselves. Yeah, so, and I feel like a lot of this is pushing towards, you know, once they have everybody scared, and I see a lot of talk on social media about if only we had a vaccine that would save us from this coronavirus, and I was wondering if you could speak about the efficacy of vaccines in terms of flues and this virus. In the great swine flu pandemic that didn’t exist, the man in charge of influenza 19:22 vaccines at the center, I guess it was the CDC at that time, he was a supervisor of that department, not all vaccines, but especially the flu vaccines. He pointed out to his superiors repeatedly over, I guess, several months that the time it takes to develop any of these flu vaccines is usually a year to a year and a half, and by that time the flu germ has spread, reached its peak and disappeared. People are naturally immune to that particular strain by the time the vaccine comes on the market, and he lost his job for going on television 20:25 talking on 60 minutes, I think it was. Oh, Phil Donahue, I think it was. Yeah, Phil Donahue, yeah, that got him fired, and then later 60 minutes did a detailed analysis of the failure of the epidemic to, one death, one soldier was confirmed to have died of the flu virus, no one else in the world by the admission of the head of the CDC, but hundreds died from the vaccine, and so now when someone says that vaccines are confirmed not only to be useless, but to be dangerous, and in many cases worse than the disease that they can’t conceivably be produced in time to prevent, those people are now being called quacks. 21:29 Yeah, now in the history of vaccines there have been useful ones, right, in the past? Yeah, when it’s an organism that doesn’t change faster than the vaccine can be produced, smallpox was probably the best example of a vaccine being able to totally abolish a disease when it’s used intelligently. They would identify where the outbreaks were and then form a ring of vaccinated people around those outbreaks and let the disease run its course inside that ring, and repeatedly doing that they closed in and eradicated the vaccine from nature. Because that particular disease, was that a virus, smallpox? 22:32 So it just didn’t mutate quickly so they could get a handle on it? Yeah, and I think other diseases are probably slow enough to change that they could be treated. Similarly, if the effort were made they could close in on them and eliminate them for relatively small price. The cost for the eliminating smallpox on the world scale was microscopic compared to the annual expense on measles and the standard array of vaccines that kids are getting in the United States and most other countries. The cost alone is enough to lead to a more intelligent policy. 23:36 Yeah, and I think you said the cost now is $50 billion, $4.5 billion a year just for vaccines for children. Yeah, that’s stupendous and maybe not that effective. How do you rate their efficacy? Since they’re stupidly used trying to vaccinate the whole world rather than closing in on the virus when you have an outbreak at Disney World, for example, you can track those people and vaccinate everyone around them and a thousand people for everyone vaccinated will have avoided the vaccine. And the vaccines have a consistent and predictable 24:39 rate of damage and harm. Mortality, paralysis, brain damage, autism is one of the outcomes. But no one really denies the government pays at least a proportion of the people they harm. They acknowledge that they’re doing harm. But instead of intelligently reducing the number of people given the vaccine, they prefer to pay for a stupid use of vaccines that otherwise could be effective. Yeah, and that makes sense to me. And the testing is of questionable merit. The safety testing is absolutely crooked. Some of the vaccines with the known harmful 25:46 adjuvants, aluminum hydroxide is added because it causes a systemic inflammatory reaction. And so that’s the most harmful, more harmful than the germ itself. But when they’re testing the safety of a vaccine, you would expect that they would test the safety of the combination of aluminum hydroxide and the other junk that goes along with the actual antigen. But in some of the studies, they gave the adjuvant to the control group as well as the test group. So they’re creating a certain level of damage in their control group and comparing that to the damage in the complete virus, complete vaccine. Basically, I can’t think of any way that 26:53 a person could design that experiment without intending to defraud. Yeah, and just so people know, the adjuvant is the addition to the wounded or weakened vaccine or the weakened virus. After using aluminum hydroxide to produce that general inflammatory reaction that revives up your ability to produce antibodies, after using that for generations, gradually becoming recognized by the people suing the government for brain damage and death and so on, that it is developing a bad reputation. So they’re looking for new adjuvants, things that will do just as much inflammatory damage, but that doesn’t, things that don’t yet have the bad reputation that aluminum hydroxide does. 28:00 But the same thing will occur with these lipid-based nanoparticles of lipids used as antigens. After another 50 years, those will develop a bad reputation. You mean you can’t actually stimulate an inflammatory reaction without damaging the organism? Yeah, that’s probably a major, if not the only, motor of the aging process is the accumulated damage done by interacting with irritating stressful parts of the environment. Your body changes with every encounter and the more of an adjuvant function that the environment imposes on your body, the bigger reaction it forces you to make, the greater the change 29:07 in your life course is we’re in a constantly revising process as we develop and age. And these systemic reactions for every encounter foods we eat and digest and assimilate properly, even those are adding to our immunological burden so that to deliberately increase the activity of the immune system is to deliberately accelerate the process of aging and degenerating. Let’s see, so in the history of vaccines when you go way back to in your recent newsletter which is available at repeat.com you mentioned a fellow named John Williamson called Johnny 30:12 Notions and so how did his vaccines work if they didn’t have this adjuvant? The smallpox vaccine all by itself is irritating enough, it doesn’t need an adjuvant and he weakened his just by reasoning he weak reasoned that if he could weaken the deadly something they didn’t know what any idea of what viruses were at that time but if he could weaken this nasty material he put it in smoke, he would take a pus or a scab from a person with smallpox and smoke it for a while and then pack it under, I forget what kind of leaves he covered it with and a layer of camphor and then buried it for years, letting chemical processes happen. This was 31:22 in the 1700s so almost nothing was known about how chemistry works but he intuited that he was doing something to weaken and change the age and then he would introduce it into the skin not into the muscle or under the skin but he had a very fine tool he made that would split the skin so it went into the living material but didn’t reach the blood and all of his people were made immune he had vaccinated thousands none of them died from the vaccine as they would have from a modern vaccine. Yeah and that sounds a lot more gentle in that it’s not being in what’s the difference between a dermal application like that a skin application and a being having something injected into your bloodstream? Yeah in the last 10 years or so 32:29 a few alternative doctors were practicing it 30 or 40 years ago rubbing it into the skin gently rather than injecting it but experiments now in the last 10 years show that when you take a particular antigen and either take it by inhalation or ingestion or rubbing it into the skin or injecting it carefully intra-dermally that the the systemic results are absolutely different from when you inject it into the blood or into the muscle or even under the skin the immune system is designed to react in a maximally appropriate way when things get rubbed into the skin or inhaled or eaten and when you bypass those normal routes of infection the immune we don’t 33:34 have an evolved immune system for proper reactions to needle injections into the muscles the whole thing about using needles seems to have been a matter of professionalism in the 1800s doctors were the only ones who could have have access to needles and syringes they were technologically beyond the public and so they created or claimed to have a monopoly on what they said was the most effective way for giving medication instead of the crude old-fashioned way of having people either inhale the medicine they would give it by needle into your muscle or directly into your bloodstream 34:41 there never was any valid scientific basis for giving medications by injection hmm and so you said it’s it’s radically different if you if you take it through a more natural way where you do have actually a defense can you still get the same vaccine reaction adequately enough the reaction is more organized what they get from the injected reaction is largely a reaction to the tissue damage leading to autoimmune type reactions more more reactions against your tissues than against the antigen but in the process the antigen can be taken down by these specific antibodies but that whole antibody theory of immunity is essentially 35:45 superstructure built on ignorance of how the immune system works the antibody theory came about more than a hundred years ago with with the lock and key idea of Paul Ehrlich which was a way to sell a chemical drug drugs by arguing that he would have a specific chemical for the specific lock the chemical key was so specific that a particular drug would cure it and the antibody became the the model for the equivalent of a specific drug cure and and the the antibody based immune theory has been given a series of Nobel prizes 36:46 at the end of the the last century but since then most of the knowledge of the real immune system the innate immune system is intricable they used to say that only the antibody system was a real adaptive process but they simply weren’t looking at the adaptive processes on on the other tissue levels so since the flues and viruses adapt too quickly for vaccines to be useful against them it sounds like we really should depend on the innate immune system how do we get the innate immune system to work for us i’m making people healthy exposing them to fewer vaccines as they grow up is i i think a very important part of it allergies allergic people 37:52 are known to be the ones who react the worst to the corona viruses and the changes the degenerative or autoimmune changes that happen with aging make a person more susceptible to harm from the otherwise mild coronaviruses uh but just being allergic or already having an activated interferon system makes you more susceptible so the person who can have an abundant uh energetic metabolism but with without a lot of inflammatory experiences can produce the most organized and almost unnoticed 38:56 uh rejection of the infection the 80 percent of the people who don’t know that they’re infected with this particular coronavirus they are the ones with a good immune system they don’t react noticeably um and at the beginning you you spoke of um let’s see if i can find that oh yeah you said a lung infection is inflammatory and it’s it’s it’s triggering the angiotensin interferon and histamine reactions um and you covered some of angiotensin problem last week although i have some more questions but you haven’t mentioned anything about how the interferon and histamine systems would react with the the coronavirus one of the main things that the interferon system does is to activate the production of nitric oxide which in vitro is a 40:01 very good virus killer it’s a pre-radical that will destroy just about anything but in in vivo there have been comparisons with a coronavirus the nerve infection is a major target of some coronaviruses and other respiratory viruses as an alternate target causing encephalitis and in experimental infections with nerve targeted coronaviruses they find that blocking interferon’s production of nitric oxide is prevents deaths of the animal and it’s specifically the interferon production of nitric oxide that’s killing them 41:02 and i think analogous things are probably happening it does kill the virus but it also helps to kill the host and same with serotonin serotonin is is produced by any inflammation and blocking the effects of serotonin for example the chinese are using synanserin serotonin blocker as one of their tools against the coronavirus can you spell that again ray synanserin c i n a n s e r i n okay great and so that’s that’s actually cutting down so serotonin is an inflammatory chemical that we make when we’re under stress yeah serotonin is talking about the veins tightening up and so does angiotensin is the same thing what’s the purpose of those in a 42:07 healthy creature oh the tightening of some of the circulatory system helps to raise the pressure and get more blood to an area of of where the problem is so it’s it’s just one one of many emergency functions and in general i think it’s appropriate to think of these inflammatory things as wound healing agents if you have a hole punched in you these are very appropriate for making the organism direct its healing efforts to the place where the wound is and accelerating the cell growth and attracting cells to the area to repair it but but when you 43:11 have them spreading out from from your lungs for example into the whole organism the whole organism is suffering because that particular type of repair system can can be so damaging when it takes place in the lungs yeah so it’s an ecology and it’s only supposed to be present for a short time while it’s doing its emergency work yeah yeah i kind of understand that i’m in in histamine how does that fit in it tends to be any injury causes it to be released and the experiments with coronavirus show that it sensitizes the tissues to histamine so any any injury that’s releasing histamine becomes more harmful in the presence of the virus 44:20 estrogen is something in the background of all of these uh and antrotensin increases activates aromatase to make estrogen so estrogen is coming up in the background of any of these injuries and stress and estrogen increases production attracts mast cells that make histamine and activates its release and and that intensifies the the oxidation of fluid into the lungs for example and one question i had from last week before we get into these other questions so a few from listeners is that you said that in the angiotensin cycle why don’t you describe briefly the cycle again of how angiotensin is made and then how its inflammatory syndrome is stopped well first the renin enzyme is one of the starting things and antrotensinogen 45:30 stress and things like estrogen make the liver produce more antrotensinogen which is a protein cleaved by renin the enzyme largely from the kidney and the product of this is called antrotensin one and then an enzyme ACE antrotensin converting enzyme number one produces antrotensin two acting on the product of of the renin and antrotensin two is the one we commonly think of as antrotensin leads to all these inflammatory things and the enzyme ACE2 is it i think its main function is to destroy antrotensin or antrotensin two i see so ACE1 46:36 produces the big inflammation promoter ACE2 destroy yeah and so coronavirus attaches to and inactivates ACE2 leaving ACE1 producing antrotensin and its inflammation oh i understand because you said um ACE2 is a sign of a youthful person if you have a lot of that in your system it means you’re keeping this that stress hormone or is it a hormone angiotensin yeah i you could call it that it’s a peptide it signals something yeah yeah okay so um if you have a lot of ACE2 that’s a sign of youth um and but the coronavirus is able to to attack that uh yeah ACE2 i see yeah they i know in detail how it attaches and and 47:39 changes changes that so protein but that in my mind that begs the question of how how come young people are not affected by the coronavirus since they’d have more ACE2 yeah if you have enough of it it it outweighs whatever the virus does healthy young person can sacrifice some of their ACE2 to the virus without succumbing to the symptoms i see so they they can show the infection but they still have the anti-inflammatory ACE2 in reserve because things all of the components of good health it seems vitamin b1 progesterone aspirin a lot of good things help to keep your your ACE2 up i see okay that’s very good to know and now i’m going to go to some questions from 48:42 from people who are kind enough to send them in and the first one is finishing up one from Innis Marx he said in a very recent interview professor dr christian drosten one of the leading virologists in germany said that some of the patients studied in germany did not have neutralizing antibodies which they found surprising but have recovered despite their immune system not reacting correctly that’s in quotes immune system not reacting correctly what does dr p think of the role of neutralizing antibodies and this is in regard to the corona virus i i i think the healthy young person without too many vaccinations has an immune system that reacts correctly and doesn’t bother with getting to the antibody stage but the there there has been a kind of underground gradually gaining recognition 49:45 in the immunity field jamie cunliffe in the england and poly matsinger or i think she has worked her whole career at NIH in this country and they have the danger theory of immunity or the damage theory is is cunliffe’s terminology in which the immune system in their view isn’t on the outlook for so-called pathogens it the antibody theory is based on the idea that we form a picture of the evil germs and and then create antibodies specific to to that image of evil and it’s familiar in in this other picture of immunity 50:52 the organism has a picture of itself that it wants to preserve it knows what it is and where it should where its parts should be and when it experiences damage i think that’s the better terminology than the matsinger’s danger that the damage is recognized because the organism knows itself and knows when part of it is out of place when an organism that does damage what is recognized is the damage and in the process of correcting the damage the or the the pathogenic cause of the damage tends to be recognized and eliminated but the emphasis is put on maintaining or restoring 51:55 the image of the body rather than learning images of potential invaders yeah i i suspect that’s a more realistic approach about 20 years ago someone was studying an encephalitis virus and they they were aware that a specific brain antibody was formed and people were thinking of that antibody as an autoimmune perpetrator perpetuator of the encephalitis condition but in this experiment they suppressed the production of that specific antibody and found that the animal proceeded to die got much worse when the antibody was was removed 52:58 and they found that the antibody was serving the purpose of repairing the brain not not causing the damage and that is the view of of cunnliffe and matsinger that the immune system is there to repair the the damage and if you have autoimmunity it’s because you’re something is prolonging the repair process you want to give it more energy to complete the repair rather than trying to poison the the system that makes the autoimmune antibodies and does that relate to what you’ve mentioned before about retroviruses um maybe indirectly but some people say that as much as 50 percent of our genome might be retro elements so when you stir up damage like poisoning the 54:07 liver for example you’ve released thousands of things that can be identified as like a retrovirus and so if you look for a particular virus like particle in a stressed organism it looks like you found the the agent but really it’s probably one of the repair processes Barbara McClintock showed that we can move genes around under stress stress causes the mobility of genetic elements to to increase and these retro components seem to be emergency spare parts that you don’t see unless you’re under severe stress yeah i related that to you’re saying that when you just suppress the antibody the organism 55:12 which was trying to repair the brain you were saying um so i was thinking i was thinking of it it’s doing repairs but this is well this is just another level of of repair and revising the system even at the genetic level okay i’m going to move on to another question and this one is hard to read i sent it to you by email ray because it’s it’s got a lot of questions of nomenclature that i don’t understand and probably can’t read i don’t know if you saw it or not i didn’t okay let me just try to simplify it a paper published in nature looked at 16 patients with with covid 19 the paper found that among the differentially expressed functional molecules the letter levels of interferon and then there’s a bunch of letters and t-cells were lower in the severe group than in the mild group whereas the levels of the granzyme b and perforin cd8 t-cells 56:13 were higher in the severe group than in the mild group um and this data indicates that the covid 19 similar to some chronic infections damages the function of the cd4 t-cells and promotes excessive activation and possibly subsequent exhaustion of those t-cells of the cd8 t-cells together these perturbations of the t-cell subsets may eventually diminish host antiviral immunity could ray offer an interpretation of these statements and comment on the effects of aspirin in this context i would have to read the article but my first guess would be that the interferon mt and f were um did the question say that they were increased or decreased they were lower they were lower in the severe group than in the mild group 57:15 um i’m i’m not sure how to interpret that apparently some something has killed a part of the t-cell uh repertoire and uh i would have to look at it closely to figure it out okay all right um the next question is do you think all the nonsense created by the coronavirus outbreak is a reaction to the anti-vax movement that’s been increasing in the last few years uh it’ll it’ll be a good excuse for suppressing them more actively yeah and i think it’ll raise the peer pressure uh from the scared public um to actually uh introduce vaccines for this sort of thing and the internet is being 58:19 uh biased against uh them communicating with with each other in the public yeah um here’s another one i’ve been reading about the health risks from 5g and rf radiation from cell phone towers bluetooth and cell phones and wi-fi some of the health risks are the same as coronavirus how much are these cell phone towers and cell phones triggering the virus and or suppressing the immune system thank you jason um the um the kind of damage uh done by chronic exposure uh to that kind of radiation does weaken the the basic quiet immune system and so it would predispose you to the inflammatory kind of reaction anything that is a chronic uh weakening influence 59:27 let’s see can you ask ray about the confusion between people suggesting things that decrease ac e2 and things that increase expression of ac e2 ac e2 since ac e2 is known as the entry point of the cv i see people suggesting to decrease anything that may increase suppression yet when you look at research yeah go ahead i i think that was an argument published in lancet magazine uh that uh against aspirin or anti-inflammatories but i think those people just hadn’t read the relevant things that in fact increasing a2 goes beyond what the virus infects and has a protective effect rather than a target effect okay and he adds um when you look at the research it seems that things increase expression of ac e2 like low 01:00:32 sarten are most helpful for people with the coronavirus um can can you suggest other things that can increase the expression of ac e2 i think those that i already mentioned uh progesterone aspirin vitamin b1 i think the anti serotonin agents probably do that i’m not sure okay and what are your thoughts on social social isolation being a remedy in keeping this virus contained it does limit the spread of viruses but that that would be helpful helpful in any flu season but i think the the harm done but by the pressure to enforce isolation 01:01:34 is greater than keeping the incidence of respiratory infections lower i see since it doesn’t seem like it’s that the contagion is that serious so far that’s my impression yeah the website of a british nurse has some contrary information about the nature of the pandemic and use of uh what are the what and i said what does that mean ray uh yep non-steroidal and inflammatory drugs thank you aspirin as your as your friend said most people will not die but as it spreads undetected without symptoms in some and only after many days and others tens of millions of people will be exposed as is happening one percent of 50 million globally could mean 500 000 deaths add to that everyone who for other reasons needs hospitalization but could not access it as the system overloaded to keep alive the five percent who need critical care 01:02:35 and you have additional deaths both diet and general health are not optimal across this planet so look to the poorest to die in large numbers in occurrence the bilderberg group types would not be concerned with your friend is right this virus is similar but the novel aspects that allow it to spread and contrary to his assessment trigger an immune response that itself becomes life-threatening it is also now killing people age 40 plus and younger if your immune systems are compromised lack of sleep stress bad diet drugs air pollution which we are free to experience because of their freedoms i i wondered to mention that the the approach to killing the virus is almost almost always worse than the result of the effect of the virus three of the the most often mentioned antiviral remedies chloroquine acyclovir and another of the nucleoside 01:03:50 analog types can’t can think think of the name right now but these three most frequently mentioned are aimed at killing the virus by damaging its dna or rna or ability to replicate rna or dna and these also happen to damage human dna and at the expense of mutating millions of people uh there are recommendations to try to slow the virus replication but i i think that’s another thing besides crashing the economy to increase the amount of poverty in the world uh the damaging uh nutrition and increasing stress these these most frequently 01:04:59 offered protections are really very serious harms they actually poison you uh yeah well they damage the go and ads and and the retina and for example uh anywhere that cells have to replicate and reproduce themselves you’re interfering with their dna replication and and so you create some sickness in the individual but also the risk of mutated descendants i see yeah great there’s there’s a solution and i think i have one more question i’d like to get raised thoughts on claims that vitamin c can increase interferon and cause a cytokine storm cytokine release syndrome the few studies i’ve seen show the benefit of vitamin c for improving immune response but some health experts are 01:06:01 warning against it thoughts um that has been my personal experience uh that in 1956 when vitamin c became cheap the tablets were 500 milligrams instead of of 50 i had had good experience with the 50 milligram tablets in 1953 but i took one of the 500 milligram tablets immediately got cold symptoms and over the years i had that experience until i would get bad symptoms if i would just have a two or three milligrams of the synthetic form which at that time could be added to bacon or bread or pretzels almost anything you wouldn’t expect vitamin c to be added to but i ran because of my own experience i ran into numerous other 01:07:04 people who had had similar allergy like reactions to commercial vitamin c i found that i could consume 4 000 milligrams a day of natural vitamin c by eating simply eliminating grains for my diet my intake averaged 4 000 milligrams of natural vitamin c no problem problem at all but two milligrams of the commercial stuff produced the reactions and a chemist a free radical specialist dissolved 500 milligrams of reagent grade the purest available ascorbic acid in a liter of repeatedly distilled water and then put it in an esr apparatus to measure the free radicals and he said that that amount of vitamin c contained enough 01:08:09 heavy metals to oxidize the vitamin c in its free radical state so that the free radical concentration was equivalent to a killing dose of x-ray i forget i think he said it was 60 60 graze of super intense dose of x-ray to produce that free radical activity in water wow so that’s what you’d inadvertently get trying to be healthy and eating vitamin c yeah he he repeated he analyzed the traces of heavy metals and picked out just one of numerous heavy metals present as contaminants and just the iron alone would replicate that that reaction but the contaminants included a variety of toxic heavy metals 01:09:12 so you should get your vitamin c from fruit i assume or you can also get it from meats too right meats and fruit and even milk all animals except people and guinea pigs and primates make their own and so all all of the animal foods are generously supplied with vitamin c because the animal makes it i see and you said you got it by eliminating grains does that mean you just didn’t you took those foods out of your diet and so you had more room for the vitamin c producing foods i said yeah yeah Linus Pauling said we need 4 000 milligrams a day because that’s the amount of goat or chimpanzee would make on a body weight basis but chimpanzees can’t synthesize it so they depend on getting it from their foods and the only food they don’t eat 01:10:14 that we eat is grains they leave some fruits and animals and and they they are they they get this diet and the the idea that we need a supplement is assuming that we live on on bread and cereal and pasta i see and you but you’re not saying that the grains chelate out the vitamin c or anything like that they’re they’re just free of vitamin c i see they’re the only food that is free of it yeah all right well that’s good to know so aspirin b1 vitamins not fruit and any other suggestions for how to keep your immune system up and yeah vitamin d is one one of the most important uh it works with thyroid progesterone uh and uh the uh 01:11:19 ACE2 for example um to um quiet the reactions and calcium keeping a high ratio of calcium to phosphate in your diet works with vitamin d in calming the immune system hold down the inflammatory reactions and the and vitamin a is that important um yeah the membranes in particular all of our surfaces uh eyes nose lungs are dependent on a good vitamin a uh content before for making proteins largely uh keeping the the the protein turnover at at an ideal level okay well great is there anything else you’d like to add about uh from a message to people at this time no i was looking at looking at those uh videos that i mentioned 01:12:24 or websites i think will help to reduce the panic uh do you know who david ike is or icky that’s spelled icky you know i just i just heard him recently there is a recent video of his on the corona virus and i had never thought of him as someone saying anything sensible but the only thing i disagreed with him in this particular interview was is saying that sugar is immunosuppressive but everything else that he says in that interview seems okay although normally i would consider him a a a borderline maniac oh would you okay um well that might be an interesting listen and i also would like to talk to you sometime about the importance of keeping your blood sugar at an optimal level uh in terms of supporting one’s 01:13:30 immunity um because i think a lot of people are talking about fasting as a way to boost their immune system yeah just 24 hours of fasting is enough to damage your all of your functions energy production especially and energy is the basic thing for maintaining your your non-inflammatory immune system your your maintenance health maintenance system okay so maybe we can go into that in some detail at some point okay ray thanks so much for being on politics and science i really appreciate it and um hope you stay well and we’ll talk to you again soon i hope okay thanks okay thanks ray bye bye bye so ends the interview with dr raymond peat phd in biology from the university of oregon and this was recorded on the 24th of march 2020 i’ve been your host john 01:14:37 barkhausen and please tune in again next week for another edition of politics and science