On the Back of a Tiger, Day Two

00:00 So, we’d like to start with your explanation of the idea of the interdependence of structure and energy, something that isn’t talked about much and how that runs counter to the accepted culture of how the independence of energy and structure? The physics as it developed in the 17th, 18th, 19th century became more and more abstract in their understanding of energy and matter and the whole idea of matter tended to define units as sort of lifeless, utterly lacking intelligence and the kinetic energy concept 01:06 that Leibniz proposed was living force and so if you abstract kinetic energy and equate it with heat and chemical energy and potential energy and such, then you get this abstract idea of energy as something separate and when you take away the living force, what you have is a dead matter and the same abstracting process reduced matter to the idea of elements and an element is made up of supposedly timeless, indivisible units, each of which is identical to every one else in the universe and in old chemistry classes, they used to talk about how to do a particular experiment. You would use nascent oxygen, meaning freshly born oxygen which had the reactive properties 02:16 that old oxygen doesn’t have and that’s an example of one of the properties that you tend to neglect that if every atom is the same, no matter where it is in its history, the astronomer Halton Arp sort of revived the idea that time is important in matter when he saw physical connections between galaxies that had different red shifts so that should have been in utterly different parts of the universe with different ages and so on and so he proposed the idea that newly born matter has different properties altogether, mass, energy of ionization and so on and the person who I think he claimed the term isotope, Fred 03:29 Sadi, he’s now in the main line of physics history but he proposed that cosmic rays are the result of newly born atoms that he saw time as a real thing affecting the nature of an atom so that these people got away from the abstracted notion of dead matter all the same everywhere regardless of context and so on and with part of the motivation for having that abstracted idea of both energy and matter was because they wanted to build machines, understand the causal interactions, how, what happens when you put energy, fuel or fire into 04:36 your steam engine produce steam and motion and so on and that understanding of a machine with the energy abstracted from the parts that you’ve manufactured that was used as a model for an organism and it led at the beginning of the 20th century to the idea of aging as wear and tear just like a machine you run energy through it and it degrades over time gets worse and worse and the Vernadsky-Le Chatelier trend is that as you run energy through matter it complexifies and that’s especially relevant to a living system which is generated and complexified exactly by 05:40 the flow of energy through it which should be running the machine down by wear and tear and still practically all of my professors were absolutely dedicated to the idea that aging is in one way or another wear and tear somatic mutations and so on so once you see the context, the historical reason for doing this abstraction of energy from matter it gives you a different picture that you can’t separate the existence, the very substance of a thing from its place in the energy system all the way up to the star energy that’s driving the life on earth for example and the applying this to the organism you get a different view of what stress is from the old 06:54 view stress involves tearing down the system in various ways and the idea of a functional system is that whatever the organism decides it has to do you can call it a stressor or an opportunity ideally things problems are opportunities that allow you to develop a part of your system to meet the possibilities or challenge in the environment and the exercise of that part of your system to fit into the environment in that particular unique time sensitive way 07:55 wherever you are in your development means that you’re going to use a different part of your system to respond so if you get a job chopping wood for example you will use part of your system and develop the capacity to do that very well but if you don’t talk to people about your chopping wood the energy from your talking system goes to strengthen your your working system and whatever the organism is doing as part of its survival and daily living is reinforcing the system that’s functioning and backing up the development of what you’re using to adapt 08:55 the stress hormones like cortisol will take down like if you’re using one set of muscles and not the other the cortisol that is helping you adapt is going to dissolve unused muscles turn them into amino acids which then feed the muscles that are working and different kinds of exercise eccentric exercise means that you’re trying to use your muscles in a productive way but something’s resisting it and instead of doing what you want to it stretching it against your intention concentric means that you’re achieving doing work and then relaxing doing work again 09:58 concentric it builds and the eccentric tears down and the the positive building side of your functional system uses things like testosterone to block the action of the destructive catabolic cortisol type hormones someone used radioactive labeled testosterone and gave it to a weight lifter and then made an image of where the radiation was coming from and they thought it would all be concentrated in their skeletal muscles but their heart was the brightest concentration of testosterone and if you’re under stress doing hard labor it’s good to 11:07 take down the muscles you aren’t using build up the the working muscles but you don’t want to take down your heart to feed the working muscles or your heart lungs and brain are where the concentration of testosterone is to protect against the takedown as food the thymus is very weakly protected and it’s the first thing to go away when you’re short of protein and under stress so you can build a muscle quickly and feed it high protein solution just by taking your thymus down and looking at cadavers people who had been killed in accidents or died after a sickness they found that the adults didn’t have any thymus gland to speak of so that created the 12:11 idea that it’s a gland that normally atrophies but using isotopes and such they found that a healthy adult does have a thymus and that good health progesterone for example and thyroid would accelerate the regeneration of the thymus gland and so the the old idea of adulthood and aging and stress were really artifacts and the better examination of what’s happening shows that in good health at least the the stress effects are temporary and repairable Becker I believe talked about children when they get a digit of their fingers separate if left alone it’ll grow back if anything’s done to it it won’t and that it’s not 13:14 really accepted that this idea that the digits will grow back very few doctors even know that now yeah it’s been known for more than 50 years I’ve seen it happen three times around 50 over 50 years ago was the first time I saw it next time was a little kid a four or five years old caught his tip of his finger in the wheel of his tricycle and cut it off right at the base of his nail and I told his mother about what I’d seen in the late 1950s and she got a the case of a ballpoint pen that just fit over his finger without touching the tip and just kept it unexposed to to error and I forget maybe two weeks or something like that 14:22 it had completely regenerated perfect fingertip and then a friend of mine who was an electrician accidentally sawed off the tip of one of his fingers a few years after that and he had big big fat fingers and so he used a an aluminum cigar tube that just slipped over his finger and again I guess he was 40 years old at the time it regenerated perfectly so part of my understanding of that is that the carbon dioxide equilibrates and protects it against excess oxidation and oxidation I think besides drying it out it prematurely differentiates a layer of skin scar tissue and skin and the carbon dioxide 15:27 keeps the energy up and lets the tissue sense the cues that it should be sensing to to finish its proper development and the same I think applies to injuries internally that could lead to cancer or fibrosis if you’re well soaked in carbon dioxide and the nutrients the carbon dioxide keeps the energy up and inflammation down so instead of making a prematurely differentiated scar tissue you can go on differentiating replacement prepper stem cells what seems unique to your writings and thought processes that you take the ideas of Hillman and Ling and Pollock and May Wanhoe and others as well as this idea of the interdependence 16:29 of energy instruction apply it to or impact how you understand disease aging and nutrition how how did you connect these dots because it seems so rare for someone to look at these abstract ideas and oh the um I think the the questions that I had in in the 50s that led to experiments such as measuring the conductivity of young and old people seeing that the body seemed to be developing internal obstacles to to communication of some certain the electricity simply doesn’t flow through an old body as well as a fresh young body that was sort of the background of of a coming in this direction and so the seeing that the idea of the membrane in the 60s 17:43 the there was a real mania in the 60s scientific american started it early in the 60s and then several new journals I don’t know how many membrane journals around the world started nature devoted a whole new magazine nature membrane I think it was called so at the time I entered graduate school the idea of a membrane as a limit to each cell uh was dominating and uh it it conflicted with with my idea that the organism is a whole thing that generates its field and has its conductivity and and so running into laying uh he seemed on the path to developing knowledge that doesn’t 18:46 say work like a machine with little isolated parts and uh right at that same time that that I ran into Ling’s work I started well I had I had read Michael Polanyi’s book personal knowledge in the 60s and in that he said just a very little bit about his own work uh somehow I had in the encyclopedias earlier I had ran across adsorption at the article on adsorption at that time had a little passage describing Michael Polanyi’s adsorption isotherm uh and it was one of the few mathematical images that really seemed appropriate to 19:46 apply to the real world and organisms that the adsorption increases with the concentration or pressure and uh that means that you’ll get multi-layer adsorption simply as the pressure goes up and uh 1915 when he presented that Einstein and other big shots in in physics said well in Hungary that might seem convincing but uh in the modern world we know that uh one atom with its electrical charge totally neutralizes the field of the underlying one you can’t have multi-layer adsorption and so he he went off and did different things but he went into studying crystals and the elasticity and surface properties friction 20:49 all of the things that people study in crystals and found that every place he looked long range energy was showing him the same kinds of long range multi-layer effects that when a crystal if you work a metal until it cracks the energy to separate the the parts of the crack is drawn from a great surrounding area that this antenna like effect conducts the the energy even for something like breaking a crystal and the um if you wet the surface of a crystal what you do on the surface affects the elasticity properties of the crystal so it goes from the inside out and from the outside in there’s there’s no such thing 21:56 as an abstract surface that there are long range effects all this was done in the early 1920s and again when he would present his ideas they weren’t acceptable it was 1931 I think when he in London finally did a revision that could account for long multi-layer adsorption but anyway I started reading Polania at the same time as Gilbert Ling and seeing that these long range forces were part of creating the coherent image of the cell in the organism that the membrane thing was really an attempt to preserve the abstractible reductionist parts the whole is 23:02 nothing but a sum of the little parts nothing long range beyond the membrane either outside or inside the inside is all one phase the outside is all another and they’re kept different by the properties of this membrane now I wrote to Ling at one point asking him if he had considered using the Polania adsorption isotherm because of this intrinsic field idea that was built into it and he said no the one he was using like me or I guess it was works fine and then how did these or this alternate model that you were shaping in your mind 24:08 change how you thought about nutrition and disease? I think it was much later that I was against a background of deciding that my mental activity should be directed toward use rather than interaction with with culture systems periodically from the 60s on I kept saying now how can this be useful and to the extent that something is useful how does that 25:13 affect the theory about it and so I was constantly trying to remind myself to keep the the theory and generalization in the same world as the practical stuff and right at that time someone who saw me having a migraine later said she had known someone that that said that eating a carrot today would prevent migraines and so I started trying it and for I guess it was about six years I ate a carrot every day and didn’t have a migraine and that started me being receptive to 26:16 information which I had again read earlier the newspaper Dr. Walter Alvarez in the 40s had written some sort of autobiographical books describing his experiences working with the intestine of his medical students for example and so putting together the old medical stuff about the importance of the intestine and the ration experiments in which they would put a balloon in the intestine and inflate the balloon nothing would happen but if they gave the animal some insulin to lower its blood sugar again nothing would happen 27:16 until they blew up the balloon and stretched the intestine and then it would have a construction of the trachea or seizures or some analog of some symptoms some disease that’s common and that when I started writing the mind and tissue doing the course on Russian brain research I was integrating that with the effects of estrogen thyroid progesterone and so on and so on and the information going way back medically that into the 19th century people were aware that dying people very frequently most of the time 28:24 showed intestinal inflammation as though it’s a universal factor in sickness and dying so those components were needing explanation in terms of these this coherent picture of the organism so things reinforced each other until it gradually produced this picture of the organism adapting to its environment both internal nutritional chemicals toxic chemicals running through the system stresses consuming energy lowering blood sugar causing you to shift your fuel type the way you used your oxygen and so on so besides the daily carrot 29:28 what other changes to your diet or lifestyle did you make when I lived in Mexico for myself as well as seeing the people in the city and country who were very short on on food I was teaching English classes and paying expenses by cutting my food intake and and that was how I ran across a store that sold wholesale wheat term and I found that I could get the required amount of protein and vitamins very cheaply using wheat term but then my teeth started decaying and becoming very painful and I looked up what the properties of wheat 30:30 term are and it’s extremely high in phosphate and it takes calcium out of your system and so I saw that you have to economize in safe ways but the keeping the idea of economy was a central factor way into the the 70s when I was trying to finance by continuing studies by cutting my living expenses to practically nothing so as part of that I ran onto the idea that potatoes are very close to a perfect nutrient balance adequate protein because of the high quality of the protein and amino acid equivalent and have basically everything except vitamin A and B12 31:35 and then I in Mexico everyone cooks their their their tacos on such in vegetable oil and and so I was pretty well soaked in safflower oil for all the years that I was in Mexico and working on my dissertation looking at the things that cause aging and the wastage of oxygen the way estrogen and and radiation do I saw that in the early 1940s that their lab animals had in several labs had suffered epidemics of brain softening and atrophy of of the testes and the doctor shoot in the 30s and then his son Evan and 32:41 Wilfred in the the 40s and 50s were working on the idea at first that vitamin E was a fertility nutrient because of being anti-estrogenic and being anti-estrogenic it prevented blood clots among other things and the preventing blood clots led them into treating it as as something to prevent heart disease but in the middle of that process uh the fact that these lab animals getting a a grain based or bean based diet very high in polyunsaturated fats the brain and testicle atrophy was prevented by adding vitamin E 33:42 and because of the various industrial forces at that time 1942 the pharmaceutical industry I think a dozen different companies came together to lobby the FDA and medical schools to the idea that estrogen was the female hormone and should be approved as a drug to treat infertile and aging women and because this coincided in time with the discovery that the what had been the anti-estrogenic vitamin E that it cured male infertility and dementia in the animals that that would be bad if it was acting as an anti-estrogen to prevent degenerative disease so they promoted the idea that it’s working as an antioxidant that the the vegetable oils are 34:51 unstable and the vitamin E prevents that toxic free radical thing and so out of that misinterpretation essentially what vitamin E is developed this whole idea that aging is caused by free radicals excess and in my dissertation trying to understand what estrogen was doing similar to aging and radiation I saw that previously the toxic effects of the polyunsaturated fatty acids were producing lipofuscan or age pigment and that the degenerating brain and testicles involved the same oxygen lacing pigment producing process that had been seen 35:54 in old infertile uteruses and so I started extracting the pigment from the the aged certain gnarled up uteruses of the hamsters and and studied the the age pigment in itself and found that it has an enzyme like oxygen consuming effect that generates free radicals and wastes oxygen and so that that sensitized me to the immediate toxic dangers of unsaturated fatty acids and then in the 70s I saw an experiment described in which they had given several groups of animals I think it was 15 different compositions of the diet 36:56 high fat diet low fat diet high poofa low poofa in different combinations and at the end of their life the fat animals were the high poofa animals independent of the quantity of fat in their diet so a low fat pure poofa diet was just as fattening basically as as a high fat high poofa diet but high fat all the saturated fatty acid diet wasn’t fattening so that that was when I decided to look for a source of coconut oil as sorry I read the literature and saw that there were just dozens of studies showing that as the proportion of polyunsaturation 38:04 in the diet increases not only obesity but the the rate of cancer goes up directly with the unsaturation of the fat in your diet and one one coconut oil was was such a standard animal food at that time many people showed that it was very low in its allowance of of cancer to develop and hydrogenated coconut oil just wait for this siren okay hydrogenated coconut oil was tested in relation to cancer and carcinogens and it was even more protective than a normal natural coconut oil so it was purely the the 39:05 unsaturation and new studies are are showing that red blood cells for example are high in steric acid in people who don’t have cancer and low in steric acid the saturated fat in people who do have cancer and as far back as the 1920s there were observations that a fat free diet made the animals cancer free and where did endotoxin fit into this picture for you for me it was the a way of understanding how bowel inflammation uh could have so many ramifications of uh for example in traumatic shock 40:12 if the intestine is full of undigested food the consequence of the shock is much worse uh and and so just as a as a reservoir of something the intestine interacts with stress and shock and when your adrenaline goes up for example the movement of the intestine decreases you you don’t have bowel sounds when you’re tense and the circulation decreases uh that’s part of the uh functional system the blood flow and energy go to your working muscles and you don’t use your viscera so the same thing that shrinks your thymus is uh shutting off the blood supply to your intestine and if that goes on very long your intestine loses the barrier function and whatever is in the intestine tends to get in 41:17 the bloodstream and endotoxin is uh it’s always present to some extent if you have bacteria and it’s always a mild stress but when the organism is uh being intensely challenged then endotoxin can have systemic very intense effects and so its endotoxin is just one of the dimensions of the the challenges that the organism is defending itself against there have been experiments on long-range germ-free effects and the animals have a very low mortality in youth and middle age then on the the diets that that they give these germ-free 42:29 animals then they almost catch up in mortality in very old age but mortality is definitely low showing showing that they’re more resistant to stress in in many ways simply by uh not having germs growing in their intestine but uh they are still eating a standard diet with uh among other things starches and unsaturated fatty acids and even though the the one of the factors that gets in your system when you’re under stress is endotoxin a fairly small molecule even the bigger molecules such as starch grains can get through the wall of the intestine and circulate and 43:29 in effect accelerate aging uh the mice mice have been fed raw starch for a long time and then sliced up and found that there were nests of dead tissue all through their bodies including their brains around starch grains that had plugged up small arterioles and cut off the circulation so the endotoxin is a chronic constant thing starch grains are another factor and the the polyunsaturated fats are unless you make an extreme effort to avoid them they’re always going to be uh absorbed and incorporated into your tissues and it happens 44:30 that the unsaturation makes them a little more water soluble and uh so they to some extent escape oxidation through the the the fat-loving cells and are more likely to be stored simply because they are safe say in circulation and avoid being eaten immediately but when they’re in storage in fat droplets in in your fat tissues the fat cell is needing energy to survive and it preferentially oxidizes saturated fats and and so once you start getting fat your fat cells are eating the good stuff for themselves and letting the stored fat get more and more polyunsaturated and when you’re under stress these are the water soluble things 45:30 which are released preferentially so the older and fatter you get the worse any stress is for you and the polyunsaturated fats not only have their direct effects hormone like and a toxic effect on the mitochondria the unstable susceptibility to oxidation and so on but we have the enzyme system that creates creates a loop in the molecule creating the prostaglandins and at first the drug companies said there are hormones that we make you find them in semen that’s why they call them prostaglandins and and since they’re hormones they’re their 46:35 prospective products for for drugs or supplements and I got some to experiment with around 1970 or 71 and I was doing electrical measurements still at that time and I put some spots on my skin and for comparison I made a sleeve covered with tinfoil and had some holes in the tinfoil so I could sunburn spots selectively and the I think it was the F type of prostaglandin imitated the sunburn electrically it created a reducing area on my skin and the around that time a few people started saying well they’re natural hormones but some of them have really bad effects 47:41 such as knocking out progesterone production in the ovaries and so there was the yin and yang theory of prostaglandins the good ones and the bad ones but when you look at the good ones as the evidence accumulates they all have some really bad effects causing pain or or atrophy or inflammation or such so not having any of these ordinary prostaglandins would be good and when you’re really deficient absolutely lacking of the the vegetable n minus six or n minus three fatty acids the body produces its own polyunsaturated fats but they’re stable because they have this tail of a hydrocarbon chain of nine carbons they’re the n minus nine 48:47 and these are anti-inflammatory rather than pro-inflammatory and so our body tends to make those when it isn’t being blocked by the the vegetable or fish oils and so our natural defensive anti-inflammatory system seems to be a casualty of the accumulation of these environmental uh fats and um can you talk about how endotoxin can increase some of the other uh disease causing agents like estrogen and serotonin um yeah the the intestine being the the main source of endotoxin you can breathe it if you 49:48 work on a farm for example it gets in the air and can cause respiratory problems but usually it’s the intestine that’s the main source and the intestine is well supplied with hormone producing cells and serotonin there are a lot of conductors and regulators in the intestine various types of of nerves and things like nerve pence measures that regulate the tone and function of the intestine and the intestine is very richly supplied with these serotonin producing cells and uh the partly the direct effect of the endotoxin activates these cells and at the same time it’s 50:55 making the intestine leaky by knocking down the energy production it’s also acting as a signal to activate serotonin production and uh the combination of of the leakiness the lowered energy and the serotonin increase nitric oxide uh production and the serotonin and nitric oxide circulate systemically uh ordinarily the serotonin that’s absorbed into the blood from the intestine is carried on the platelets to the lungs and the lungs are major detoxifying organ and uh the nitric oxide interferes with the the production of the detoxifying capacity of of the lungs and so the 51:56 combination of nitric oxide and serotonin and especially if endotoxin is also reaching the lungs will swamp the ability to to detoxify serotonin and then the serotonin gets through to the brain the brain normally produces only a few percent of the body’s total serotonin but it’s it’s a very important regulator in the brain controlling emotion and formation of new cells for example and if your intestinal serotonin is getting through to your brain it’s received as a stress signal creating depression it turns on the little peptide signal which turns on your pituitary signal to produce acth to turn on your adrenal glands 53:03 so the serotonin caused by stress getting through your lungs into your brain turns on the stress system activates production of cortisol which unless it’s compensated with a lot of testosterone and progesterone is going to start melding down your your tissues under the influence of stress so the these three factors and in particular serotonin nitric oxide and endotoxin are a very central part at least in our present diet atmosphere and so on they’re a very central part of keeping us on the edge of melting down all the time so having identified some of the stress causing or disease promoting substances 54:05 what do you consider as life-supporting or energy protecting I’m this morning I saw an article from two or three years ago about the one of the oldest men in the U.S. and I think he lived in New Jersey and it was the oldest man in the state when he died at 111 and his son said that all through his life he would eat bowl after bowl of strawberry ice cream as his favorite food and that the staples of his diet were sugar fat and when he ate vegetables they were cooked to softness and so the choosing the right kind of vegetables and good ice cream 55:07 that that’s really a perfectly supportive long-life diet the in Vilcabamba where there were people who according to the church records they were up in their 140s and were and and the churches generally have been very reliable records of births and deaths and living in the high high regions they ate lots of greens because they’re easy to grow in a stressful environment and sheep milk or sheep cheese because sheep are a common animal for farmers in the high mountains and so that that made me interested in in the role of 56:11 high magnesium and mineral intake and there’s there’s talk that in in these high areas the the water a lot of it is glacier water rich and pulverized minerals but I think the diet of a very rich in in minerals such as magnesium and calcium is an important anti-stress anti-aging effect and thinking about the effects of high altitude besides the low oxygen pressure that prevents an overproduction of lactic acid when you’re under stress and working because in your lungs there’s an exchange between oxygen and carbon dioxide if you reduce the oxygen pressure you increase the amount of carbon dioxide left in the tissues and the carbon 57:19 dioxide pushes towards the continuing oxidation of glucose and inhibits the production of lactic acid lactic acid produces inflammation fibrosis and and so on so the high altitude in itself just because of the the oxygen relative deficiency is very protective but another thing about high altitude is that as water evaporates from the ocean you get all of the isotopes pretty much coming off the surface of the ocean heavy hydrogen deuterium as well as normal hydrogen but as as the water condenses first in in the coastal regions rising and cooling as it goes 58:25 it rains out selectively the heavy isotopes and so the higher you go the lighter your water is and the first experiments were they were written up in science news around 1950 in which they said that they were making heavy water for their nuclear industry and they’ve they fed mice some of the heavy water and found that they had accelerated aging turned gray in middle age and died young and so the very little was done from 1950 until pretty much this century but there is definite evidence that the heavy isotopes slow down biochemical processes 59:31 uh simply lower the energy production of the system and you you could make some improvement in your isotope balance just by for example choosing sugar beet derived sugar from the high country in the midwest colorado for example if you could get all your sugar from a beets grown in in colorado you would have a distinct advantage in isotopes over Hawaiian sugar which is very rich in the heavy isotopes and and so a couple of companies I think a Hungarian company and Chinese company are selling ways to produce light water cheaply 01:00:36 uh and uh even selling bottled for I saw on the internet $10 a cup for the light water and would you also consider you’ve mentioned progesterone and thyroid would you consider them life-supporting or energy protective yeah our body is naturally uh renewing itself and stabilizing itself by supporting the oxidative processes and differentiative processes in a challenge we’ll have a flash of reduction electron rich conditions but that produces cell growth accelerates repair and then to turn off that process you need energy and our central stabilizing hormones are thyroid to run the oxidative machinery 01:01:47 and cholesterol is a basic stabilizing substance but the cholesterol can be turned into pregnant loan and progesterone if you have enough raw material cholesterol and enough thyroid the thyroid oxidative energy is needed to take off a chain of the cholesterol molecule and it uses vitamin a to do that and in the brain this is at the basis of all of the degenerative brain diseases psychosis euphoria depression and so on the the failure to convert cholesterol into pregnant loan progesterone and the neuro steroids so without adequate thyroid and adequate 01:02:56 cholesterol your brain can’t do what it should be doing and instead under stress it produces the esters of cholesterol so the the young healthy brain has it’s very rich in plain and cholesterol which is a stabilizer and the deep manned a dalsamers brain is low in real cholesterol but instead has the ester form relatively soaked like water relatively water soluble and tending to destabilize the brain and in fairly recent publications they’ve described giving I think it was nine or ten grams of purified cholesterol every day to autistic kids and improving their brain function because they had seen that their brains were being deprived of 01:04:02 neuro steroids and I think sugar of which lets your liver and intestine and other cells produce more cholesterol sugar and thyroid will support your body’s ability to make neuro steroids testosterone progesterone and so on have all these findings and connections you’ve made led you to believe there is a root cause of disease or how can disease be understood differently within this larger context how can disease understood as a general process deprivation I think essentially energy deprivation environmental degradation in in every sense the a lot of the fossil and mummy records and such 01:05:07 Egyptian mummies had practically no cancer and so the record shows that there have been whole periods of history or prehistory when people either had very different diseases or practically no disease showing how important the environment is and insurance companies over the last well they’ve been in business for hundreds of years and they’ve accumulated information about where people are better bets for ensuring and mortality decreases according to their figures decreases as you go higher in altitude and cancer decreases even fairly small differences and people have said what about the radiation and let’s look at melanomas 01:06:15 theoretically caused by ultraviolet burning of the skin someone a cancer geographer in Texas and the altitude differences between the north northwest Texas and and the flatter lower areas isn’t very great but looking at this most radiation sensitive supposedly cancer melanoma they found that there is an inverse gradient even within Texas and in in the higher higher ranges the insurance companies have seen that the mortality for heart disease and cancer both are are much lower at high altitude so the the nature of the the whole ecosystem in itself is is a factor and things like living where there’s abundant 01:07:20 mineral rich food good digestible fruits for example will will help us to make our own carbon dioxide but at a given diet and other conditions the higher you are the more protected you are from these intrinsic processes of advanced endotoxin starch absorption and so on how did you come to believe or or why do you think that fruit seems to be such an ideal or helpful food I think I was thinking about an article of JD Bernals in in 1960 he was talking about the the evolution of heavy atoms in in stars in the sun and 01:08:26 that started me thinking about the the nature of energy and and matter in general and just in the most generalized way that I could conceive in in 1960 I was thinking of what the ideal flow from the sun to our brain would be what things would simplify and generalize that flow to reduce the costs in side effects problems disease and so on and looking at at the flow of energy trees that could stay in place for many years dropping their leaves to fertilize the ground humans putting their sewage back into the soil 01:09:28 and eating the fruit as their main energy the plants evolved most most of the things we consider edible fruits were specifically evolved to tempt and support animal life to disseminate their seeds and so the plants would put really serious toxins in their bark and leaves and roots but they would create things that would promote animal life in the fruit so that the animals would live long enough to spread their seeds so the environment is deliberately supporting animal life in the form of fruit and ruminants have developed a system for detoxifying the environment 01:10:29 that other animals have neglected so if you put fatty acid into a polyunsaturated fatty acid into a typical person or non-ruminant about 98 percent of it survives into the system if it’s a quickly absorbed 2 percent of it the bacteria can saturate but the ruminants simply extended parts of their intestine to allow that kind of bacteria that can hydrogenate polyunsaturated fats to develop and cook their food before it gets into their system so they have about 98 percent of their fats become saturated for 98 percent of ours are remaining unsaturated 01:11:31 so the way a tree can continue producing fruit constantly a cow can constantly continue converting vegetation into almost a perfect food so it turns out that the two most compatible foods with our system and with the the cosmic energy scheme fruit is is the basic energy efficient one milk is the practical conservator of energy and provider of a concentrated nutrient can you talk a little bit more about milk and what made you start to integrate it more into your own diet um when i was living in mexico city 01:12:36 much of the milk probably uh there were 70 or 80 percent of the milk was adulterated and uh tasted terrible and uh was known to be other stuff than milk so i pretty much stopped drinking it when i was doing the college and over several years every spring i would develop pneumonia and really really started having healthy deterioration when i would go back to the border i would first thing i would do would be to have a giant milkshake back when they didn’t put glue in the milkshakes and so my health would improve just for for having this milkshake 01:13:36 diet while i was in the u.s and then i would come back and i had when i was 16 and working in the woods i weighed 160 pounds and uh after several years of not having all of the milk and uh fancy diet that i got in the woods my weight went down to 145 and a friend of mine professor there said uh you you should go back to the u.s before you die because i was getting so skinny and besides the larger connections you made about fruit and health and milk and health um what about the carbohydrates in them are more health supporting than starch the uh the nutritionists in the 1970s uh started talking about the glycemic index as uh 01:14:51 in connection with the the idea that uh sugar is the cause of diabetes and so on and and in looking they were saying that it is good to eat foods that don’t have such a high glycemic index on the idea that that glycemia is is what is harmful causing diabetes but the actual figures show that a pure starch is much more glycemic than a pure sucrose a pure glucose and pure starch have the absolute perfection of raising your blood sugar sucrose is much lower and when you test the components the glucose half of the molecule is just like starch and the fructose part of the molecule can actually lower the insulin because it goes into your cells so easily and is converted 01:15:57 it promotes the production of glycogen when it’s taken in ordinary physiological amounts it raises your glycogen helps to steady your blood sugar over time because the glycogen is available as soon as your blood sugar falls to oxidize so the the glycogen the fructose part of the sucrose molecule that you find in most fruits is anti stress anti anti uh insulin stimulating and anti obesity because it prefers to increase your glycogen stores and steadier blood sugar rather than stimulating insulin insulin stimulating fat synthesis as well as glycogen synthesis so it’s a little steadier to have a sugar diet rather than a starch diet 01:17:05 and besides the fruits have come with a high concentration of certain minerals the pretty much the balance of minerals that we have in our cells a high potassium concentration for example uh you hear about bananas and orange juice as as rich sources of potassium but but that’s typical of any fruit or any cellular material and so it’s compatible with supplying the nutrients that we need and the potassium itself has an insulin like action helps the cells to take up and use carbohydrates bypassing the need to secrete insulin so it’s easy on the pancreas your pancreas doesn’t have to do anything if you’re eating fruit so there’s very little 01:18:11 insulin stimulation so some of these conclusions specifically that simple sugars are beneficial and that polyunsaturated fats are harmful seem to run counter to what’s considered healthy today both by medical professionals and by nutritionists how did the establishments in so-called experts get everything so wrong I mentioned how the pharmaceutical industry collaborated and conspired against the public and the government to sell the idea that that estrogen is the female hormone that prevents infertility and aging and so on and that helped to shape the interpretation of of what vitamin E is 01:19:11 doing and instead of recognizing the toxic estrogen like effect of the polyunsaturated fatty acids it happened that during the 1940s the war cut off the supply of coconut oil things like Oreo cookies had been made since the 19th century using coconut oil and so a lot of our standard commercial foods had been using coconut oil because it was cheap coming from backward countries free labor and the war cut off access to those sources of coconut oil and so other alternative food materials as well as especially animal food 01:20:12 were becoming available Henry Ford had been responsible for starting the US soybean industry he made a soybean car in the 1930s replacing the steel body parts with plastic made from soybeans and for various reasons that didn’t go over but still the cars the steering wheel door knobs and dashboard parts and such were made of soybean plastic for a while but the the plastics industry and the paint industry found the soybean a good source of raw material but then chemists found how to make plastics and paints out of petroleum so there was this soybean 01:21:16 industry that had been started largely for paint and plastics that had no market and the reinterpretation of why the oils were toxic to animals this had to be a rethought and when they compared the soybean fat for example in a pigs diet to coconut oil the pigs were healthy and hungry and slim on the coconut oil diet and became fat and marketable eating less food on the soybean diet so they realized that it was great pig fattening food and still they had leftover soy oil that couldn’t be used 01:22:20 in the paint and plastic industry because petroleum was so much cheaper and as the paint industry shifted to petroleum the marketing of these toxic oils to humans looked for evidence in biology and biochemistry to support why they should be a human food and the burrs who in the 1930s had argued that they were essential fatty acids despite the contemporary published evidence showing that they were carcinogenic and fattening burr himself showed that giving the so-called essential fatty acids to rats suppressed their metabolism by a huge amount of 30 percent or something and he theorized that maybe their their skin was leaking fluid and making them 01:23:30 need extra heat to evaporate all that water but the pig industry saw it was really slowing their metabolic rate and making them need less food to put on weight but burr because he was the one outstanding figure who insisted that he had found that they were really nutritionally important that the x-paint industry found him as their historical support for saying look it’s essential if it’s essential it must be good for you and so how can it be good for you and that was when they discovered or reinvented the idea that cholesterol is toxic rather than protective and if you define cholesterol in the blood as rather than a defense 01:24:34 against stress as the cholesterol in the blood rises your ability to turn it into protective pregnenolone progesterone and brain steroids rises so when you’re injured you defensively increase your cholesterol production but if you reinterpret that and say look stressed people have high cholesterol must be causing the stress therefore if we can lower that we will have a health food product and the polyunsaturated fat does lower cholesterol a little bit and so that was the whole basis of the saturated fat cholesterol thing causing heart disease and several studies in the 1960s like a veterans study put people on on this high polyunsaturated diet and they 01:25:39 started dying at a higher rate of cancer and so they stopped that but still the industry push was to present the n-6 c-dol polyunsaturates as essential and beneficial so the idea of going from essential in a minimal trace amount to beneficial in any amount that finally drew things like the the heart study that turned out to be the carcinogenic diet study that gradually started coming into the public consciousness that they really can be seriously toxic so as the c-dol toxicity was coming up with people like Clarence Ip showing that as you increase the percentage of linoleic acid in the diet 01:26:43 the cancer mortality of the rats increases linearly and that sort of thing was such through evidence of linoleic acid as probably the main motor of cancer and aging this coming into the public consciousness required some marketing changes and so the idea of essential fatty acids said well maybe it’s not the n-6 maybe it’s the n-3 because we have all of this excess fish oil that the environmental protection agency I think was who gave a boost to that the canneries along the coasts were dumping their fish skins and heads into the lagoons and in landfills and such and creating horrible pollution so the EPA told 01:27:46 them they had to clean up their their factories and they economized by refining the fish heads and skins into protein powder and fats and I guess the fish oil lamp market was extinct so they had to I find something to do with with the fish oil and very limited market for fish oil varnish and lamp fuel and such so the marketing of it as a health food has developed over the last 20 years and since it took about 50 years for the toxicity of seed oils to come to consciousness I think we’ve got another 20 years anyway of fish oil promotion. And then the marketing seems to have been so successful in that it’s a billion dollar 01:28:51 a year industry now as well as it seems to be if the one supplement that everyone is yeah one of the marketing ideas is that the brain has a lot of n-3 fatty acids in it and so they say it’s an essential fat and especially essential for the brain and so you’ll have a better brain and you can use it to cure schizophrenia depression Alzheimer’s disease and everything especially in the brain because the brain is so full of it but and people have noticed that ruminants in particular a newborn ruminant is really highly saturated and newborn humans the brain is pretty free of of the n-3 fatty acids and so 01:29:57 people have said what kind of a catastrophe is this that almost all babies are being born deficient in essential brain fatty acids and and so they started saying you need to give it to to the babies in their artificial milk to let their brains and retinas develop properly and some French researchers devised an experiment for electrically monitoring the brain the babies the fetuses responses to sounds so they would play a sound into the mother’s abdomen and record how the baby’s brain accounted to it and so they were studying prenatal learning or adaptability and they predicted that by feeding the mother a lot of fish oil that they would be improving the brain preventing the essential fatty acid deficiency 01:31:03 and it turned out that it had the opposite effect it impaired their brain adaptability and reduced the birth weight and brain size of the babies which this outcome using seed oil this had been done in the 1960s and 70s showing that feeding a pregnant or rat or dog a very saturated fat diet the babies had bigger brains and were much more trainable feeding them a highly polyunsaturated diet the babies had smaller brains and were less trainable so the the French study has simply applied to humans what had been learned 30 some years earlier and so what do you think could be the root of the problem is it simply just the influence of money 01:32:08 dogmatism rationalism do you think it’s one thing in particular um I think the um Wilhelm Reich spent his his life thinking about what the source of authoritarian irrational cruel behavior is and he increasingly saw it as incurable in adults and that it required an early start in life and I think to a great extent there there is curability in in adults people can given the right setting radically change their way of thinking and living but given a change in institutions the whole society can in one generation I’m sure 01:33:16 make the switch give up the destructive ways of upbringing and so on uh and but making the switch and deciding uh what’s wrong I think is is what’s being prevented and there are the the corporate institutions and their subservient government regulatory agencies that are enforcing uh creating laws to keep in place the wrong ways of doing things because uh there’s investment in it that has to be protected the property rights of mistaken science are are being built into the legal system and you had sent us that talk by Gerald Pollock about why there’s fewer and fewer breakthroughs in science and it seems like there 01:34:21 was a definite shift when science and medicine took a turn for the worst and that a lot of you know pre 1950 or 40s or whenever this happened seemed to be so much more good science and science open to or more receptive to outlying ideas um I I ran across uh some articles in the 1920s in which uh the the drug companies and chemical companies were uh talking among themselves about how how Germany’s chemical pharmaceutical industry uh had been so important to them in the first world war and that America had better start imitating German science and culture and uh uh that uh and various other influences uh working with government uh the the atomic bomb 01:35:26 project uh the the government sort of in an unpublic way was seeing these needs of industry and uh of the country to compete against Germany and Japan in the 1920s and 30s Japan and Germany had the chemical industries for example and and the um poison gas industries and so on and so the US wanted to get in on germ warfare uh radiological warfare uh chemical warfare and so on and so a lot of this was very secret in the US but it was developing in the 30s so the government uh was intimately involved at the beginning with the corporations in uh developing a new kind of science the the Manhattan project was where the the money uh flowed in huge quantities to 01:36:34 beat Germany and Japan to the atomic bomb and as soon as uh the bomb was produced the industry which had been very secretive for German chemical warfare uh started receiving the money that wasn’t needed to be concentrated purely in the bomb research so uh they uh to get the money funneled efficiently uh they converted this secret chemical and germ warfare industry into molecular biology and uh A.B. Jensen uh or E.B. Jensen uh was the the person who invented the estrogen receptor he had been a a chemical warfare specialist until the government financed him to be part of the endocrine molecular 01:37:40 uh revolution in biology and um he was uh given isotopes from the nuclear industry so he had a government connection that allowed him to do experiments that supported his argument that estrogen as an analog of of uh chemicals and hormones in general estrogen acted only by turning on genes by attaching to this so-called receptor and he demonstrated using the government isotopes which no one else had and the real science developing at the same time had shown that estrogen is acting like a co-factor in many ways uh affecting the activity of enzymes uh in in the cancer metabolism for example 01:38:45 it’s acting as a shuttle oxidation reduction on one side and oxidation reduction on the other side it helps to shift energy to facilitate the shift from glucose oxidation to fatty acid oxidation essential for cancer metabolism the the um enzymeologists working on endocrinology in the porties were moving in this direction which happened to be showing the ramifications of the dangers of estrogen excess but besides the industry pressure uh selling estrogen as a vital anti-aging profertility drug there was the the government industry with its germ warfare people creating the idea that estrogen can do nothing but turn on 01:39:54 enzymes turn on genes and what is going to turn on are the female genes so it’s harmless to men because uh women have the genetic tendency to be women and if estrogen is acting only to activate genes then it’s only going to affect breasts and hips and have maybe the pituitary uh but it was an ideological setup that turned out everything he argued to show why estrogen receptors were what he claimed them to be all of those claims proved to be absolutely false like he had just invented a story and then said I have the tools to prove I’m right you don’t have them but as they became more generally available his claims turn out to be wrong that 01:40:56 estrogen is activating enzymes and doing massive changes instantly when it reaches the cell uh were the the process of activating a receptor turning on genes and making proteins there’s quite a delay between putting it in the cell and getting your change but actually estrogen acts you can demonstrate chemical changes in the first five minutes taking up water changing enzyme activity and so on uh so the the shift to molecular biology the whole thing has to be suspected and reinterpreted it wasn’t just scientists said oh and I’m going to stop making bombs and I’ve become a moral person I’ll I’ll think about how to cure cancer by studying molecular biology and and genes and how the brain works and so on 01:42:01 but it was being pushed by huge amounts of of government government financing additionally it seems another problem is that most scientists see with blinders on only focused on their very specific field of inquiry what do you think that says about both them individually as well as the system that seems to support that um the the typical person working in science starts right away in in high school and undergraduate college studies thinking they’re going to be a career scientist or doctor and so they’re they’re um shaping the way they think and and accepting the authority of textbooks and professors and 01:43:02 the uh liberal arts education used to be uh centered on learning some kind of universal context and learning how to take a critical approach to knowledge but with the turning of science into a career that the idea of becoming a scientist affected how doctors were trained uh medicine was turned into a a science and a technology rather than uh in the 19th century it was thought of as primarily an art in which everything had to be evaluated and judged uh so the the training of of scientists and and doctors has become textbookized and textbooks 01:44:10 even used to be uh the reflection a famous physicist or doctor or or whatever would sum up his knowledge in a textbook and they used to be very a lot of them were very readable better than novels for seeing how a person was holding reality together and making sense of things but as science education became institutionalized and turned into a career textbook publishing became very practical and they looked for who was going to be buying their their books and so the the well financed professors in the biggest universities who were 01:45:12 getting uh introductory courses of four or five hundred students uh one of those professors could could uh if they charged a hundred dollars per book uh they had their expenses paid just by sales to one professor and so a chemistry textbook for example would look for who had the biggest classes around the country and and then what they had published and the text would be laid out according to the achievement of who was available to buy their books so so you would learn the the chemistry according to um who had the biggest classes in the country um going back to some of your own self experimentation um with your diet or uh 01:46:18 certain vitamins environment and lifestyle um can you talk about the how the relationship is set up between doctor and patient in the society and how that sort of self experimentation is often discouraged um I was always trying to apply what I read like in a del Davis or Linus Pauling to my own practical situation and sometimes it had really bad consequences like when I was overly impressed with Linus Pauling’s advocacy of vitamin c uh uh the before Linus Pauling got on to vitamin c it was sold in in the late 40s and early 50s in little tiny 50 20 25 or 50 milligram 01:47:23 tablets and it was usually called safe atomic acid and uh when I worked in the woods uh my first few weeks I was getting terrible poison oak and someone said he had heard that vitamin c made you immune to it so on the weekend very itchy and inflamed I went to the store and drug stores were selling little bottles of it and I took a couple of pills on the weekend and the itchy inflammation blisters disappeared and since then I’ve never had poison oak sensitivity so I was very impressed with vitamin c and then a few years later in 1956 uh it started coming out manufactured in a new way where it was very cheap to make 500 milligram tablets and I took one of those and the next morning woke up with a sore throat and uh repeatedly 01:48:29 I would try it and get a sore throat and then uh in the mid 60s I read Linus Pauling and was really convinced uh read some backup studies that it should have anti stress anti edging effect and so I started taking some and got chronic bronchitis and had a horrible cough and then on some trip I was in a hotel and made throughout my my bottle of vitamin c and my cough cleared up and so I started getting interested in what might be in the in the ascorbic acid that didn’t have good effects and uh with further study over the years I learned that there were manufacturing trace metal impurities in the most purified synthetic ascorbic acid that made it 01:49:32 create oxidation by products equivalent to very intense x or gamma rays so it’s it’s always a stress to take the manufactured stuff and I found that just a milligram or two of the synthetic stuff if ever even without knowing that I was taking a bread for a while bread and breakfast cereals and things uh contained a little bit of ascorbic acid added to the formula and just a piece of of one of those foods containing a tiny amount of ascorbic acid synthetic would make me sick but then I could drink a gallon of of orange juice other fruit juice and and get thousands of milligrams with no symptom at all but anyway I became a lot 01:50:35 more careful with my experiments on myself and that I was doing volunteer work with a free clinic in Eugene the whitebird and I advised a couple of people to stop using their vitamin supplements that contain the ascorbic acid and and several other irritants and they had total recovery from their allergy symptoms which was at that time field burning was done every summer and so everyone in Eugene got some some poisoning smoke symptoms and from those people at whitebird who recovered from their chronic allergies by stopping their their vitamin pills that started people coming to see me and and that has continued until I stopped traveling and 01:51:40 lecturing people were constantly coming to the house to have them encourage them to stop taking supplements thank well we’ll go more into that later but what I was or what I was imagining is or from my own experience there’s nothing a doctor seems to hate more than when his patient comes in saying oh I’ve started to do my own research or I read this on the internet seemingly questioning their authority in that year thank you for yourself yeah I I haven’t gone to a doctor except for like a physical to get a driver’s license in Mexico or something I think I was 12 the last time I had a doctor for being sick so I didn’t really have any personal experience with how doctors act but a couple of times I went to the hospital 01:52:46 with friends who were sick or dying and I would ask the doctor why are you prescribing that rather than this older drug that has a lot of information about it the brand new drug what’s the reason for that prescription and their reaction was just like a professor that I had embarrassed or something they’re just great hostility and refusal to comment and I can imagine that a patient going to a doctor with information why shouldn’t I take vitamin k to prevent a clotting as well as bleeding a handful of articles the doctor insists vitamin k k is for clot it’ll cause clotting and not prevent it so simply wouldn’t 01:53:52 read the papers and it’s generally just just useless to try to present information to a doctor and apparently sometimes it’ll make the doctor so so hostile that they’ll refuse to continue treating the person why do you think this great sort of hostility or skepticism towards self experimentation or self the calling the customer a patient is they’re supposed to be patient and and passing a client not a customer and the the idea is that they aren’t selling you something for money in a normal business deal you’re hiring them to do something but you’re submitting to them to their authority and the the doctor now submits not only to the authority of 01:55:03 the professors who give the instruction and doctrine but to the authority of the state in terms of the licensing board and the many of the licensing boards have delicensed doctors because they prescribed thyroid natural armor thyroid on the basis of symptoms rather than a blood test having shown that the blood test is wrong they lost their license and couldn’t practice medicine so the context is that doctors know that they’ll get in trouble with the powers if they act too rationally and if if the customer is presenting information that should be taken into account that’s part of potentially being too rational and it means challenging the system all the way up to the 01:56:08 government and so the doctors are authoritarian subordinates and they need their authoritarian passive subordinates to work and so the system is intended to channel products from the corporations to the balance of the recipient so we’d like to talk a little bit about evolution and if you could talk about your views on neo-Darwinianism about neo-Darwinism oh in the the family encyclopedia when I was probably nine years older so I ran into the the section on Lamarck and Darwin 01:57:13 and my my parents had a 19th century edition of Darwin’s Descend of Man and in the introduction to that he said people are misrepresenting me and talking about natural selection as the only thing he named several different points that were very close to Lamarck and later I read Samuel Butler’s book on on something like the biology of memory or it was his theory of olimarchy and mechanism of inheritance as memory of the tissues and he discussed 01:58:14 Darwin’s grandfather’s theory of evolution erasmus Darwin was a contemporary with the Lamarck and and with William Blake and in London at that time he knowing that evolution wasn’t popular with with the government and the church he wrote it in the form of poetry and at one point he had his carriage painted with the slogan on the side everything in latin everything comes from secretors seashells or such and that’s part of the culture that that Blake lived in in Swedenborg and his advanced brain research and and so on in in the 1700s and 01:59:21 because of the pressure of commerce church and government Darwin the grandson uh didn’t put much much emphasis on the uh lamarckian aspects of inheritance and that that’s why Samuel Butler denounced him as a a coward and a fraud stealing his grandfather’s and Lamarck’s ideas but at least in his later edition of Descendant of Man Darwin said don’t get me wrong I’m not really a Darwin a neo-dharmonist and but then the people who revived Gregor Mendel’s pee work were really very anti-Darwinian they totally eradicated and rewrote his anything that sounded lamarckian and and Mendel was 02:00:36 basically a careerist who wanted to be a higher up in the in the religious business and so he knew he knew it was going to please the higher ups if he disproved Darwin’s evolution as a Darwin had the idea that these little particles taken out of the uh various tissues uh were sent to the uh gonads to reflect the experience of the organism and become part of the germ cells and uh the uh that meant that your traits were being modified by the environment and passed on uh reflecting time and experience and the the church and Mendel 02:01:43 knew that they had to preserve something of the timeless abstract unchanging thing that God created and so they said well maybe God didn’t create the exact type of animal and plant but God did create the traits what’s timeless is the the trait not the way the traits are mixed up in the organism so by breeding peas he claimed to have disproved Darwin and Lamarck and that in fact things are timeless and unchanging it’s just that uh breeding mixes them up in different proportions but really nothing changes because all of the inner parts are are timeless perfect perfectly formed units and uh then the the neo-dharmonists in reviving Mendel were 02:02:47 basically doing the same thing saying here we can incorporate the knowledge of the physicists the statisticians and uh uh basically the whole platonic tradition uh that the particles can be absolutely understood because they’re uh standardized and unchanging and uh the the very recent just the last few years uh of research well actually starting in 1960 in Korea uh this this Korean uh reported the way he had stained uh pieces of of tissue showing what he called a third circulatory system besides blood vessels and limb vessels he showed 02:03:48 another system separate from the lymphatic system carrying very tiny particles rich in RNA and since RNA was was recognized as as part of our genetic system it looked like this was in a way maybe analogous to Darwin’s genules as something circulating information in our body and the the Korean’s work preceded uh the 1968 1969 discovery of reverse transcriptase which explained how viruses can be RNA based rather than DNA based uh because they they had their own enzymes that could copy themselves into DNA and then be reproduced uh but uh because that hadn’t been invented yet in the United States 02:04:58 uh the the Korean’s work was simply dismissed as uh so totally outside the scheme to have a third circulatory system but all along people looking at a sample of blood through a very good light microscope uh it looks like there’s a lot of dust in the background white cells and red cells and platelets and then a kind of dusty granular stuff in the background and people finally have got around to studying the dust and its particles uh I think the range is uh something like most of them are 5 to 50 nanometers or milli-microns in diameter up to the size of a bacterium 02:05:58 one micron but pretty pretty smeared out between five milli-microns to a thousand milli-microns and it’s still so small that they look like dust through your an ordinary microscope and these are now starting to be examined in different states of health aging disease and so on and it turns out that every kind of cell under stress is shedding particles of its substance they call them membrane vesicles but or exosomes but they seem to fulfill uh the requirements of some of these things all the way back to Darwin’s Gemules and the Korean’s third circulatory system and the possibly the alternative ways of looking at 02:07:05 uh gene changes under stress like Barbara McClintock’s movable genes that stress can increase the mobility and it turns out that in fact we are constantly circulating even in the blood but also in the lymph and now some other Koreans are coming back and validating the 1960 guys research showing that maybe there is a third specialized circulatory system for little particles of RNA so the what I first ran across was the the traditional encyclopedists uh the the encyclopedia Britannica had a good article on the Lamarckians and uh 02:08:08 that was because before the Second World War the uh science hadn’t been completely taken over by the dogmatists and so people were still talking about the the evidence and uh the um some some people that I knew before I went to graduate school uh were talking about the uh training uh worms uh flatwormers flat worms and the worm runners digest for example came out of the training of flatworms you would train them and then grind them up and feed them to other worms and the the new worms would have the learned behavior and uh following the worm experiments uh Scandinavian I think he was probably Danish from his name 02:09:14 Holger Haydn uh was doing similar experiments with catfish and uh uh goldfish and rats and and various other animals showing that he would train them and then grind up the brain and eject it into an untrained animal and basic types of like light avoidance or dark avoidance he could train the various animals and transmit it by the juices of the brain and in one type of experiment he would uh monitor the RNA and protein in the different sides of the brain of a catfish while putting an odorant molecule into one nostril or the other and uh show that there were RNA changes corresponding to the sense record and experience and and then he 02:10:17 would take the juice of the brain and uh show that it was involved in the training and learning and uh my first year in graduate school I was spending a lot of time in the library and I found a book called Cold War in Biology by C.C. Lindgren and uh it was published by uh the man who started the Wormranners Digest but because no other publisher would take it but it was a history of genetics uh Lindgren was uh one of uh C.L. Morgan’s uh no uh the the uh the famous uh genetics pioneer um I’ve confused him with a psychologist of emergence but uh anyway the 02:11:21 he was the student of the Columbia and uh the center of the genetic uh defining genes by crossing over the classical genetics and so he was his graduate study and early career was in in contact with the classical geneticists and it happened that another of uh one of his classmates was uh uh the person who developed the cancer prone strain of mice and and his career made him famous for developing genetic strains that would develop a certain kind of cancer uh 100%!o(MISSING)r almost never and uh both of these people uh the mouse ben and uh Lindgren 02:12:32 went away from classical genetics of the 19 uh teens and twenties uh to a perfectly Lamarckian view of things based on their experience. Lindgren worked for the beer industry and as a yeast geneticist and he described his own experiment experiments in which he would stress the the particular organisms while watching them under the microscope and showed that it it wasn’t random mutation like the standard uh university student experiment and the textbook description that uh you make an imprint of a colony of bacteria and and press that under other plates and you can show that uh the evolution starts from one 02:13:37 random individual supposedly so that that’s randomizing the whole idea of genetics to fit the neo-dharman uh idea that it’s all random variation and natural selection but Lindgren looked using yeasts that he could uh follow the individual cell under the microscope while he was starving it for a given nutrient with a stain that showed their metabolic state he could show the color change indicating that they were being stressed almost to the point of death and then you could show that individuals were changing their genes to become able to metabolize something else that was available so it was visibly non-random but this had to be published by the the worm renters press because the 02:14:42 none of the standard biology journals would take it but in in this book the Cold War of Biology he went over the whole 20th century genetic situation showing how right around 1947 there were still uh the Lamarckians teaching in colleges and high school but uh under this wave of new science I think of it as germ warfare molecular biology genetics uh there was a removal of all of the Lamarckians from the educational system right across the spectrum no one was left after 1947 uh one guy at harvard uh john carons uh started seeing uh the same kind of effect in bacteria that Carl Lindegren had written about and so he became sort of a token 02:15:52 Lamarckian that people say how do you explain that away and and they’re still pretty much trying to explain the way Karen’s uh directed evolution in bacteria meeting the need by changing their own on structure and uh more recently a couple of other people are are seeing even bacteria as able to do genetic engineering on themselves to meet the need and the only way you can achieve that is if you have a meaningful coherent structure in the cytoplasm that is perceiving the need and knowing how to evaluate which gene needs to be changed and so on so it’s intelligence directed towards the inside and the outside that you can’t explain the events without 02:16:59 recognizing that but it’s very hard to get that idea into science there there’s a website called cell intelligence on the internet for several years a man who shows uh the he argues that that cells are communicating at the infrared wavelengths and so he shows a laser directed spot of infrared energy and how cells uh can be moved around under the microscope following a spot of infrared light it seems so intuitive um what do you think the 02:18:05 getting stuck on the whole you know randomness as a like the driving force for evolution seems like some kind of like it gives you the opportunity to not take responsibility for something that might be happening yeah the um i i’ve tried to trace the doctrine of randomness or the assumption of randomness and the mathematicians were trying to describe how to predict where a cannonball is going to fall and the insurance companies were looking at how to handle randomness to predict investments and and risk judgment and so on so the mathematicians were working on it in the 18th and 19th centuries for practical purposes but in the context of mechanizing 02:19:13 abstracting energy for matter and universalizing the atomization or quantization uh into these uh out of out of time and out of interaction the absolute units the um you didn’t want any intelligence or susceptibility or memory left in matter itself and so you had to find ways of explaining it in terms of statistical chance and uh that was the context that uh sj Bose was working against when he showed that matter and organisms all had these properties of sensitivity reaction memory and fatigue and recovery uh right across from inorganic 02:20:20 to organic and living matter but that was very deliberately a definition of matter was was created to eliminate anything but random mindless causality and so the um conflict currently between the neo-dharmonists and the creationists uh it’s going back to around 1800 when uh the universities and the government said you must believe that god created it and if he isn’t intervening he’s at least responsible for setting it up and the random people who said no it’s all stupid and mindless it all happened by chance uh so they’re both uh basically committed to the same system and ideology uh the the neo-dharmonists are just as 02:21:28 extreme as the antique religionists in how they view uh change and matter and the whole thing comes down to uh what what is substance and what is is is an element and so on uh Aristotle didn’t commit himself to any of these uh ultimately deadly ideas and and so he’s very hard to understand coming from a a contemporary uh you learn what the French what the Greek word meant in his time try to figure out how you would translate it and it really becomes impossible to translate into this system you’ve got to change your mind about what substance and change and being everything has to radically change before you can translate someone like Aristotle or even 02:22:34 read him properly and uh for example uh for him apparently uh a substance was anything it wasn’t necessarily an abstract thing but but uh Socrates was a particular substance and a goat is another kind of substance uh there there’s no no defining uh absolute distinction between iron and and the emperor it’s uh each thing it has its properties and a law a natural law is what a thing does and so the laws are governed by the the thing rather than the thing being governed by the law and so if the thing is becoming and uh changing through time 02:23:36 if it decides to change because if it’s something intrinsic to it if it changes in a certain direction then you can’t say that’s it’s following a law but it wrote the law and and so if substances keep developing through time so do the laws that they at one time there were maybe uh volcanoes and and clouds and so on and uh there there were certain natural laws but as organisms appeared new natural laws appeared and uh the organization is the substance a new organization appears in response to physical conditions and that new organization is a new substance uh so the there’s a substantial difference between a sponge and a person 02:24:45 but uh each one has its uh organization and so it has its ways of its laws of behavior and reacting and so on and uh Blake was one of the first people to think through this issue and uh to it to apply it to social thinking and uh said one law for the the horse and the tiger I guess is is tyranny that each thing has its own uh natural laws it’s mind-blowing to me to think about things from that perspective because like you said both of the other ideas are based completely on external control of some kind as opposed to 02:25:53 things having uh internal motivation and that that is like a driving force in the universe no one seems to ever take that possibility into as a overall motivation for yeah you can see how how Plato uh generated a good ideology for emperors and kings uh because uh things that weren’t timeless uh weren’t quite real real things were the general ideas or the the things that don’t change and so all of this stuff uh I think it was somewhere in in Plato that he said there’s 02:26:53 there’s no real entity for things like fur and mud things that really are are not quite defined and and and so that idea that things are timeless and perfect and plain and all of this is erroneous and not not fully real so it it says that don’t try to change things the way it’s set up by those of us who know how it is uh that’s that’s the only way there is and uh Hegel have recognizing certain ways that history has changed things kept the idea that it’s still a mental process and and so it’s all closed and has a predetermined outcome the same way Plato said the outcome is 02:27:56 known beforehand because there’s no real time uh Hegel said well maybe there’s time that it has this definite outcome with with the king at the top um can you talk a little bit about the dangers of genetic determinism how that’s destructive oh uh the um I’ve known actual living eugenicists people functioning in society uh who um not only supported molecular biology and genetic engineering but who advocated it for the the purpose of of improving eliminating the wrong types of humans 02:28:57 one of the uh when Philip Abelson was the editor of Science Magazine they were regularly publishing things by uh Heronstein and and some of these Harvard uh racist fascists uh who were applying genetic determinism to intelligence and Abelson or his editorial staff kept publishing these basically fascist racist things and one of them I think was an 11 page article in their fine print a really long article for science uh talking about uh I think was essentially working class uh inferiority and after all of these pages of uh arguments their last paragraph uh drew conclusions about uh how 02:30:05 this uh determines class ability and and stratification and such but it had no clear evidence no clear relation to the evidence they’d been talking about and so I said well since in a little tiny letter to the editor I I said uh since they haven’t considered intrauterine conditions according to the environment experienced by the mother this last paragraph doesn’t have anything to do with the preceding 11 pages and I got back a rejection letter the my little two sentence uh comment on that article had gone to two different referees and each referee wrote a little article explaining uh why my comment shouldn’t be published 02:31:10 one of one of them said my position was almost as extreme as the authors and the other one said in these publications his comments are shown to be erroneous the reference he gave was work done in 1942 and three at Hitler’s racial hygiene institute could you talk a bit about the importance of novelty and stimulation for the organism or I think you’ve called it or at least relates to what you’ve mentioned as the orienting reflex um the uh if if you start with something like heraclitus’s consciousness and there is nothing 02:32:12 but novelty but with a certain kind of upbringing we get indoctrinated and start thinking abstractly and and that creates a suppression of the experience of novelty and we start seeing things in stereotyped ways and that creates a kind of depression that reduces our motivation to contact novelty makes us not only less adventuresome but to start fearing change and adventure but the natural uh heracliton state is to uh when when then an environment is stable so that it’s really presenting uh some things that are repetitive 02:33:16 uh you’re you’re experiencing change but you’re not there are no demands for changing yourself if if your environment is very stable but when the environment changes a little then you have an opportunity for adapting and finding out why it’s different and uh uh if you move your environment is different and so every time you move you’re creating opportunities to see new stuff in the environment and and so the natural state of being alive is to move and create a changing environment to have this exploration tendency every time you move you are receiving different stimuli and getting a new opportunity or a demand for action 02:34:24 so the environment can become chronically more and more stimulating and as you uh understand each of these uh changes each one calls up a need to reinterpret and uh every time you reinterpret you have the opportunity to generalize and uh see how one thing helps to explain another thing and uh the um the model we have of what we understand in the world and our place in the world uh uh this the russians called it the the acceptor of action uh when when we do something 02:35:24 our model is noticing what we do and what effect it has and and so that action is uh requiring change in our model and and so the acceptor of action is uh an actual structural process in the brain that as you have new understanding uh you see new possibilities for doing things in the world and uh this opens up the uh need and and the opportunity to uh use your energies in different ways and when you have a bigger system understood you find that you can achieve more by doing less and so it takes less mental energy 02:36:27 the more you understand but uh you discover things at a higher rate when you have a broad range of experience and and so it becomes more stimulating but also easier to do it’s uh the idea of relaxing into complexity uh you get an energy reward by the efficiency of understanding things more efficiently uh the uh the actually new circuits are set up in your brain uh combining things that had been separate and now the activation or flow of energy between your various brain parts is more abundant and more complex but also easier and so generalization 02:37:31 of understanding is also a changing of the way the inner processes are working and uh that it increases the uh the rate of metabolism rate of energy production but also the efficiency with which it’s used and uh that that should be a stimulating way of living and accumulating uh structure in your body as well as modifying the way uh you exist in the world and and that involves interaction with your your economy your ecology uh society in general um so i guess we want to get into self-ordering systems a little bit and the way nature creates 02:38:32 higher order is it spontaneous and is there a place for randomness in the ideas oh uh you know randomness is uh always a threat and uh the uh things like uh Michael Polanyi’s adsorption I say they’re in long range uh uh layering uh given a concentration or a pressure uh you’re likely to have uh a field extending through space influencing multiple uh atoms or molecules and those in turn influence others and everything has these fields and and more or less stickiness 02:39:35 and so the things like resonance and and hysteresis are spontaneously everywhere reducing randomness uh you you move your finger through water or through dust or anything where where fields interact uh friction uh this is all leaving a change in an order for uh like like you walk through grass in one direction you bend bend the grass down and uh coming back the grass is pointing at you so the way back is is not the same as the way out and uh constantly uh the the your intended behavior is is affecting the environment in ways that 02:40:38 tend to support your your intention but if you get counter intentions then that has a randomizing it breaks down the order that you’re creating and uh the the um occasionally like you have very vigorous uh parasites uh they might their intentions might if they encounter you in a state where your blood sugar is low for example the parasites might find an opportunity and start uh disorganizing your system so there are competing systems and a lower system getting too much of a uh a foothold in a higher system counts as randomness but uh the the assumption of randomness is 02:41:44 usually uh without stating it is that everything is is always random and that uh uh what what has been ordered is is achieved at high cost and and so uh the uh the arrow of time for these people is that you had to expand energy to create the order and get things piled up in a certain way and you can only do that at the expense of consuming energies somewhere else and so that develops in the idea of a universe that’s running down you’re you’re burning up a lot of energy to create a little bit of order but uh there that’s suppressing all of the alternative ideas that that the generation of order uh is really in many ways a free process a spontaneous process that just jumps out of things 02:42:55 like the way polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons generate their own structure uh spontaneously uh from a random gas uh gases are counted as random and uh most things in solution are counted as as random but that’s because we are ignoring the fields that are running through the gas and so on and it’s an idea that the atom is uh not really responding in any complex way to the fields running through it but when you look closely enough in the right system then you see that that atoms have their their different way of spinning which uh matters in many circumstances 02:43:56 that you can have memory even in the gas as it has its own state of electronic excitement and so on and uh proton proton spins and electron spins these things and probably subtler and more complicated things on the subatomic level are probably happening and uh the idea uh that nuclear fission is a random process that’s one of the biggest applications of randomness in when I was in the university uh one of the professors who pinned things on the bulletin board in the hall put up a clipping of uh uh a nuclear physicist who is experimenting with radioactive carbon isotopes and he made the 02:45:08 carbon into fatty acids or uh lipid chains of some sort and in the bottle they had a perfectly random uh rate of decay but he coated these oils radioactive oils in a monolayer on a foil I think aluminum foil and and then measured the nuclear fission the so-called random decay and showed that one decay triggered a cascade of other decays and there would be a burst once there was one there would be a burst and so he showed clear evidence that even the nuclear fission was uh interacting something in the surface uh caused them to coordinate their moment of decaying 02:46:13 so that you got bursts intermittently rather than a smooth decay that happened in the bottle and H.C. Dudley was an ex-navy physicist who had his pension when he worked as a radiation biologist I think at University of Illinois and uh he said that because he had his pension he could do the kind of work he wanted not worry about getting fired so he was working out some of the implications that Fred Sadi early in the century had proposed that uh the the Sadi proposal was maybe uh nuclear radioactivity could be reflecting an ether interaction and and later he proposed the idea that the uh timing the uh 02:47:23 birth of new material in the cosmos produced uh cosmic rays and that the uh constant generation of cosmic rays was generating a radial wave background that I think he was the first person to predict that there would be a radial wave background in the cosmos and uh when that was finally discovered I think they forgot that Sadi had predicted it on the basis of new matter being formed and instead they said this is fossil evidence of the creation of the universe in a big bang but it was exactly 180 degrees opposite from that theory it was the constant creation of matter and of course Dudley revived the things that at one point 02:48:25 Fred Sadi had had proposed to explain nuclear decay and suggested that the ether could consist of a sea of neutrinos and uh at that time the doctrine insisted that that the neutrino had no rest mass and Dudley was suggesting that there is a very small rest mass in neutrinos and that uh if the neutrino if the uh background is filled with a flow of neutrinos that they could be the medium of resonance between atoms and by coincidence as Dudley’s article proposing 02:49:28 that there could be a medium of interaction causing the appearance of random nuclear decay that was uh published in an Italian mainline physics journal within a week of the other guy’s demonstration of non-random carbon isotope decay on the surface exactly the thing Dudley was warning about saying that if things like the crystal structure of nuclear fuel is is really the uh the mechanism of nuclear decay we aren’t able to predict safely what’s going to happen with stored nuclear waste and so on uh and uh this idea of a surface affecting even even the uh 02:50:30 inner behavior of an atom it it implies that maybe the the ordering of of a metal uh is uh involving other things than electrical charge uh Michael Polanyi in his study of crystals surface effects friction elasticity and so on was showing that that the forces that you see on the surface are really also depth processes in in the middle uh and when you have a metal surface apparently causing non-random nuclear decay that means that you’re projecting something organizing something through the the the surface of the metal uh Alexander Rothen working at the out the uh Rockefeller Institute 02:51:37 was mostly known for being able to measure thin extremely thin films of substance measure the thickness by the angle at which a beam of polarized light is absorbed and so it would allow extremely fine measurements of a layer and that that was acceptable and and useful uh but in the 50s and 60s he started uh refining looking at uh places where the technique showed some anomalous results and started doing some physics experiments overnight uh repeating you would coat a glass slide with a film of metal and then uh put a protein or or 02:52:41 antigen on it and uh then maybe a film of fat or plastic over that and see what what could be detected through the the layer intervening between the protein and the antibody for example and he found that when laid in a thin film on on a metal that had been deposited on the glass the antigen properties even if the protein had been semi denatured by being smeared out on the surface you could lay a film of plastic over it and antibodies would still be detectable on the surface and uh he proposed that uh you could manufacture slides with an antigen uh laid out 02:53:44 so that you could dip it in someone’s serum and through a piece of plastic you could detect by the pattern that are pulled out of the serum what antibodies they had according to what antigens you had prepared the slide with and in studying this this process he found that aging the slides overnight would change the activity and and so he saw some process that would go up and down on as the daylight changed and so it was in some way uh timed to the electromagnetic or or other earth or solar system environment but but it was uh showing the long range effects of not only antigens and antibodies but he could 02:54:50 demonstrate that an enzyme blocked by a layer of plastic polymer could break down a substrate on the other side of the plastic film both of them knocking out the idea of a lock and key uh necessary contact uh one-to-one neutralization showing the polanyi long-distance effect opening up the the physics for all kinds of of long-range coherent processes in the organism yeah so i think that leads into uh electromagnetic fields and fields in general how um if you could talk about how electromagnetic fields influence biology 02:55:54 positively negatively what sort of how things are affected by fields um the uh Becker’s book uh the uh body electric uh described his experiment showing that uh you could impose a weak electrical field and stimulate accelerated healing of a tissue by increasing the electrical field and uh the uh the body normally is uh generating these fields and when there’s a wound there’s an intensified field and uh the his Becker’s way of of measuring these things uh was pretty free of artifacts it took the outside way of measuring things uh when you 02:57:02 have the injury uh you can measure with uh any kind of electrode even uh relatively remotely because there’s a field and that kind of bioelectric measurement it is something that gets around the artifacts of sticking a needle in and injuring the cell because you when you poke the cell you’re creating an injury potential but in the healthy organism you can externally measure the difference between a healthy field and an injured regenerative field and uh if the environment is so intensely uh full of of electrical fields uh that’s interfering with our body’s uh own generation of electrical fields and uh fairly early experiments at NASA 02:58:09 found that you could uh turn off a person’s consciousness just by putting a very intense magnetic field across their neck and uh now there are therapies being proposed in which you can magnetically uh stimulate the brain and uh the uh Holodov in Russia made a big point of saying that uh he’s talking about the sensitivity of the organism to its outside fields but but he wasn’t uh investigating the the fields generated by the organism but uh one of the references he gave me was by Madeleine Barnethy and her husband 02:59:11 on the sensitivity to fields uh following up on some of the things that Soko Trump had done and uh the Barnethys showed that uh everyone is is really uh potentially tuned in to very weak fields in the environment and the fact that very few people are studying these doesn’t mean that they aren’t important but uh uh Robert Becker was was very definite in saying that we should be a lot more cautious with our exposure to fields because they are so intrinsically involved in maintaining and repairing health healthy tissue that was something Michael Persinger talked about a fair amount when we shattered with him 03:00:13 the difference that there’s such powerful fields in the environment but that you can have profound changes in consciousness with just a very weak field that he used to apply causing you know religious experiences for people with something that has no more power than uh a hairdryer or something like that in the 60s I was uh experimenting with putting a week direct current across the brain and uh I I ran into some people in San Diego working in the military uh industrial complex who when they they learned that I was interested in experimenting along this line they they told me about stuff that uh was being done in their field and they said that already at that time 03:01:17 uh people could be monitored from a distance of several feet away give them a whole physical exam and lie detector tests and such without touching them and uh there were uh experimenters uh changing uh imposing a different rhythm on the brain the brain’s natural rhythm for example 10 or 11 cycles per second they would uh synchronize with that and then gradually slow it down and uh find that as they drove the brain frequency down below about a third or 40 percent lower than normal the person would get sick and uh they were talking about the uh the brain’s natural oscillation with the earth’s 11 cycle uh rhythm and the probably the brain’s uh 03:02:24 alpha rhythm I guess it is the 11 10 or 11 per per second uh is probably uh our oscillation with the ionosphere resonance and uh anyway I was interested in the DC fields because I was experimenting and and seeing that as conductivity increased so did the polarity uh across the head and uh after I had been experimenting uh seeing if it made sick people feel better and such I found an experiment in which they had polarized cats after at first they would train them until they could do a trick they would plot the performance of the cat’s behavior and uh they would get it to 100 percent of performance and then they would reverse the 03:03:30 DC polarity across the head and they would forget everything they knew or if they were training a cat and seeing a course of improvement and learning then they would reinforce that polarity with a positive on the back and negative on the front and suddenly they would jump up to 100 percent get it all right right away so it seemed like a potential therapy to simply give a very weak direct current support or doing things that allows a body to retain not be interfered with like a resonance effect it seems like uh yeah there was someone who isolated people in a chamber of a faraday cage and uh kept out the earth’s resonant frequency and found that 03:04:35 people slowed their brain rhythms just by isolation and you would think that there would be someone if trying to optimize the way we resonate but I don’t know if Persinger is proposing wiring your health to to resonate with with a better frequency no but they you know the effects of grounding electrically grounding um so like feet on bare feet on the earth um having a specific effect in lowering cortisol um and and other biomarkers and then there are companies now that they make grounding pads for your when you’re inside that you plug into the wall into the ground and put your bare feet um people have measured the voltage uh from the 03:05:35 surface of the earth up and it looks like the earth is a source of electrons and so putting your feet on the earth since the head is positive then walking around with your bare feet on the source of electrons is a way of reinforcing that polarity same idea as putting a battery across your head he also did experiments with uh generating a field that he said was I guess the same as the field of the of the earth around seven hertz I think you said in a time of magnetic calm and how putting the exact same field around two people that he they would separate the people into two rooms that were dark and flash a light in one person’s eyes and if they applied the same field that both people’s had the flash would register in the other person’s brain as well 03:06:36 mm-hmm yeah I um Andrea Pujaric have you run across him he was yeah I he heard about Wilhelm Reich’s actually Reich ripped off Nikola Tesla’s self-charging chamber but Reich developed it as a therapeutic organ accumulator and Andrea Pujaric built a chamber like that and some of his experiments he said it was financed by the government but either they would eat mushrooms or they would sit in the chamber and people with the known who tend to say the clairvoyance sitting in the chamber have had a great amplification and I was interested in that because of my own 03:07:43 various types of dream experiences that seemed to stick with people having experiences remotely that’s um I think that’s what got Persinger started with those experiments was he was working with someone who was somewhat of a clairvoyant and uh two different people one who uh traditionally did remote viewing Ingos one Ingos one um and then another who was more of I guess a traditional psychic who would be able to you know read people as they came into the room and by uh enhancing the field well he found first that when someone came into the room that his brainwaves would sync up with whoever came in and that seemed to be related to his ability to to read them so I think that’s what got him started with trying to apply the same fields to two different people and see the 03:08:51 the action at a distance of linking their brains Pujaric had the idea that it was a field generated by shifting I think to the exaggerated parasympathetic dominance in the brain but uh that that was just a theory to try to explain uh what he was seeing evidentially and uh the I’m connecting Sheldrake and his creative formative field to this interconnecting clairvoyant reading field um I I’ve had experiences that uh seem to involve something like uh an extending field 03:09:53 that’s sensing the future uh sometimes uh watching people in a conversation I could encompass how they were going to be directing their argument uh minutes into the future and there was a period of a few weeks in 1956 when every morning uh just in my last dreams before I would wake up I would see some sort of an event or image and I would wonder why why what that meant would be sort of an out of context dream and then an hour or two or three hours later something unexpected would happen and I would say oh there’s that dream and that happened 03:10:54 repeatedly over this period of a few weeks in 1956 and I think it was a couple years ago exactly the same thing started happening again about 56 years later I would have a dream some look like a very concrete thing an hour or two later in a couple cases I even uh mentioned it and I wanted to have a witness and in fact uh it really a very unique one-time event happened after having a strange dream of that same sort of one-time event so it made me think that 03:11:55 the people involved uh seemed to be having an intention to go in that direction that was being projected uh so there was a definite span of time that seemed to be covered in these states usually just from one to three hours I think some of the work that Michael Persinger did early on was correlating experiences like that looking at time periods where people had an increase in those sorts of experiences and then looking at the records of the geomagnetic activity of the earth and seeing that they seemed to line up where people seemed to have more clairvoyant experiences at times of geomagnetic calm and that that ability seemed more disturbed at times of high activity um but anyways uh what do you think of the work of of Michael Persinger 03:13:02 uh his uh work on on the brain and and consciousness and such uh in itself is very interesting just as a neurologist but uh his uh fields uh stimulation and uh detection of synchrony and such uh I think a lot more people should be working on that it’s uh as far as my experience goes it was these government people in the 60s who I don’t know if there were leaking stuff that shouldn’t have been leaked but uh it was very closely related to that kind of uh Andrea Pujart research at what point did your knowledge of biology and health lead you to begin helping other people with their issues um 03:14:05 um I think um reading Adele Davis uh and and seeing the practicality of of using diet changes and such uh when I was in Mexico uh seeing the the common protein deficiency and uh how big a change you could make with a small diet change uh that encouraged me to offer my suggestions to people even when they didn’t ask for it and but you had said it was um you started to sort of become known as the person that told people to stop taking their vitamins yeah that started uh in in uh probably around 03:15:12 1970 I don’t remember when white bird clinic started but at the uh we had a a peace movement and I wore a group going in the 60s and it was probably late 60s when the white bird clinic uh was started a guy named Lemons I think uh was the founder and uh all of the the peace movement type were volunteering there and uh my my main idea was based on my experience with allergy to vitamins that that started people telling each other and and sending them to talk to me what sort of things what what kind of issues did people start to come to you with um first mostly allergy problems uh constant running nose and and kids that were uh constantly 03:16:19 having calls and then fertility problems uh lots of of young women with their maltreatment by by the local medical establishment uh just incredible stories about uh uh rudeness insults assault they’re on kind of surgery uh having ovaries removed when they were supposed to be having a surgery to uh fix assist they would wake up and their ovaries would be gone uh the uh the counterculture was uh very conscious to the uh need to have a different 03:17:21 medical establishment so the the pre-clinic wasn’t just for the the uh poor poor student population it was uh an outlet an escape from the uh the dangerous gynecologist and uh I got acquainted through that connection with a local gynecologist who had years before testified for a patient who had been maimed by a local doctor and he was the only doctor in the whole region who had testified for the patient and so he was ostracized by the profession but continued his private practice and uh his own health was ruined uh had addisons or a mixture of of stress syndromes tissue damage from chronic stress and uh the um 03:18:31 that environment of seeing how dangerous the medical establishment was uh and the fact that I had been working on the danger of estrogen and a bad diet and how that was uh counteracted by progesterone and thyroid uh one of the most serious uh people to come along was someone with um a history of uh multiple sclerosis symptoms and variations brain uh degenerative symptoms of blindness paralysis and so on and she had found a katharina dalton’s book on progesterone therapy and uh I think just before that a woman with a a history of epilepsy had gone to a local 03:19:43 neurologist when she was 35 and had been a school teacher and she was having migraines and the neurologist said migraines are like epilepsy so I’ll give you an anti-epilepsy drug and she took it during the summer and realized that she couldn’t be intelligent enough to teach her classes so she stopped taking it in the fall and stopping it suddenly she had a seizure she hadn’t been warned that withdrawal from an anti-seizure drug had to be gradual and so she went back to the doctor and he said see I said migraines are like epilepsy so then she became an epileptic patient from the age of 35 to 52 and every year she would visit the doctor and he would give her an IQ test and show her how she had become dependent by her 03:20:47 her late 40s and when I saw her she was I think 52 and couldn’t couldn’t leave the house by herself because she couldn’t find the way back so her son brought her over and I told them about a progesterone and thyroid and how it worked in animals and mentioned inflammation as one of the signs of estrogen poisoning and she had two purplish kind of fat fingers that she couldn’t bend and I explained how she could dissolve the progesterone in oil and rub it under her skin she said well I’ll start with these and she took some home with her and a week later even though she had said she was not allowed to leave the house by herself 03:21:52 she came back down the sidewalk holding a piece of paper I had given her to to mark her her changes her improvement and she was grinning and coming down the sidewalk bending her fingers showing that five days later her fingers were mobile and she showed me the paper that she had doubted each day a radical improvement until she was now rating herself as the best possible and that was in the middle summer sometime and she went back to graduate school in the fall and signed up for a master’s program in gerontology got straight A’s got her master’s degree after nine months after 17 years of dementia so that really encouraged me to make progesterone available 03:22:55 and then this this other woman who had MS and blindness and paralysis and such I had started teaching at the naturopath school in Portland and she volunteered to come and talk to my class it was on the second or third floor of an old building in Portland and she drove herself to to the school came up the stairs walking perfectly and lectured for about an hour about progesterone and her experience and so then I was really encouraged to make make progesterone and thyroid available freely and I bought a a drum of armor pure thyroid powder 10 kilograms I think it was and because I had sent some of the young women back to their 03:23:59 gynecologist with telling them that you know that they were aware of what was wrong with their diagnosis that in fact one had been told that she was having a moral or or psychological problem she wasn’t couldn’t be pregnant but she felt pregnant and she found out that he had done an incompetent abortion and left part of the material in their uterus and she knew right where it was said of her in uterus it was and after many rejections and insults she found out that it was exactly where she felt it and had it removed and was okay and a series of people like that gradually over a period of just a few months let the local gynecologists know that their patients 03:25:05 were onto them and they changed and started prescribing progesterone so for 10 years or so until those guys retired Eugene had some good gynecologists um how would you describe how you interacted with your patients I don’t know that’s what you’d call them but compared to um how they interacted with their doctor how did you close different about the way you probably saw them since I was a teacher I thought of each visit as being a little hour class on a subject of their choosing they would uh introduce it and explain what they wanted to know about and so I would give an instant class designed to meet their need for 03:26:09 knowledge on what what their problem was and during that period a middle class sort of couple very unfamiliar type of people from what I had been seeing these middle classes came and and presented some health problems and said what is my diagnosis and what would you prescribe and I kept telling them that I was there to inform them and that if they wanted a diagnosis or prescription they should go to a doctor and they were behaving so oddly I made inquiries around a friend who is a psychologist had friends in local medical society and these were agents 03:27:12 sent by the Eugene Medical Society to get me to prescribe or diagnose and they were such obnoxious people it was just as obnoxious back to them saying well you need a doctor but because of that environment I wanted to give the powdered arm or thyroid to the people and so I would explain what thyroid does and how related to what they needed and how the populations around the world used to include like the fish head chicken neck and so on the thyroid gland was always left in the food supply until the government decided it should be sold to the pharmaceutical companies and sold separately so I explained 03:28:13 the quantities that used to be in the food supply and how they could use it as a food supplement but I had powdered kelp which has a very strong smell and I would shake up the necessary amount of thyroid powder with a given amount of of powdered kelp and the thyroid is in here and you you take a certain amount and it’ll provide some iodine and so on so when if there were any more spies they would show it to their doctor and you would say oh powdered kelp he’s he’s just fooling you that’s a good trick you mentioned making progesterone available yeah the I think the next person in the sequence was a suicidal 22-year-old 03:29:15 girl that had in California she had been taking thyroid from her teens when she came to Oregon she couldn’t get her doctor to continue her prescription but she got married at the time she moved and she thought her depression and suicidal urge had to do with being dissatisfied with her marriage or something and every month for 10 or 11 days she was absolutely constantly sobbing and suicidal and after that had stopped she and her husband came to visit and explained the situation and I recognized it as a estrogen excess symptom a perfectly monthly rhythm and she was about four or five days before or after the episode and I cooked up 03:30:24 a jar of olive oil warmed progesterone into it she was sobbing uncontrollably when she arrived and and couldn’t couldn’t stop and she was 22 and and mostly a Chinese type skin and a nice ordinarily smooth slightly tan skin but she had these hard green veins standing up on the backs of her hands and I had her told her to go in the bathroom and and coat her her top and neck and arms with this oil and she came back and was sitting at the kitchen table sobbing with her hands on the table and just commenting on why she wanted to die and couldn’t think of 03:31:28 any any other possibility and at five minutes after putting that on her veins had disappeared and her she was getting a little quieter and I watching the clock I noticed that over the next 30 minutes her sobbing had subsided and then she started actually seeing a possibility of living and and started looking almost cheery at I think it was exactly 40 minutes after she put it on she was smiling and saying it’s like night turning into day and so I gave her the bottle and told her next time to apply it and so the next monthly cycle came along and she formed up and said if I drank this all would it kill me and 03:32:36 and she said I oiled myself up and it didn’t work anymore so I’m looking for a way to die painlessly and so I went over to their apartment she was sitting there all oily and sobbing and she showed me the bottle that she had oiled herself with and the progesterone had crystallized out on the bottom so I went over to the store stove heated up stirred it in the solution had her put on another coat and watched the clock again exactly the same thing just like a unwinding the veins went down in five minutes and at the end of 40 minutes there was this constant improvement in mood and she was grinning and saying I wish I could always feel this good 03:33:37 um was that that was then before progesterone was around before progesterone yeah yeah the the chris I realized that it wasn’t going to be something doctors would want to follow their patients around with redesolving it and so I looked at all kinds of things to hold in solution acetone for example it has the similar group that makes it a good solvent but it isn’t pleasant so pleasant smelling and and probably wouldn’t have a good effect to use repeatedly on your skin and experimenting a lot I found that vitamin E seemed to be the only thing that was biologically very compatible and a very good solvent I could get a 50 50 03:34:40 with the highest purity vitamin E available I could get a one-to-one solution that was stable and because of you ate too much of it it would knock you out totally and very powerful and aesthetic at a high dose and so for a while I made a 20 solution and still if someone drank a bottle of that they might stop breathing from this deep anesthesia so I decided that 10 percent very unlikely that a person could take too much of it well did you want to say anything else about progesty how that I’m just curious how that came about when I discovered that vitamin E was was the practical solvent I remembered 03:35:47 experiments I’ve done in the hamster lab when I was working on my thesis the the the mouse lamarckian found that he could grind up liver either from the mice or from beef or shark or whatever and with a pure ethanol extract evaporates out and finds something injecting into the 100 percent genetic strain of mice and they wouldn’t develop cancer in that generation or for two or three generations after so something in the liver was changing their hormonal environment which was affecting the hormonal environment for generations afterwards and I got some of his mice 03:36:56 before I started working on my dissertation I got some of his mice and were testing my theories to explain what it might be in the in the liver and the thinking about st. Georgie’s argument that the that the pigments are electron donors and acceptors which catalyze as protective oxidation I was among other things testing these extracts of liver for anything that would resemble that the activated carbonyl or quinone structure and so one of my oily extracts I would do paper chromatography and I knew there would be vitamin 03:38:03 E and vitamin A and such and so I compared spots of of known substances with a potentially amber to yellow color and comparing I bought some ubiquinone coenzyme Q10 from sigma chemical to as a comparison and one of the orange extracts ran at the same speed as the Q10 and when I had a very pure vitamin E product when I mixed that with either the Q10 or the extract from the liver or simply a chemical the simplest chemical analog 03:39:07 of benzoquinone each of these mixing with vitamin E produced a black or greenish black pigment just as soon as they were stirred together and when I did the paper chromatography the solvent running past these not only the coenzyme Q10 on the liver extract moved at the same rate but the vitamin E moving at a different rate the solvent separated the vitamin E from the coenzyme Q10 and just the pressure of the solvent reverted them to their colorless or orange original color showing that the black or greenish black color was a very tenuous kind of bond that just the solvent moving it across the paper was enough to separate the 03:40:10 bond and destroy the color and so the fact that when I ground up the liver in the ethanol factor turned white I was apparently just separating some components from the coenzyme Q10 and thinking about the little livers containing vitamin E as well as coenzyme Q it occurred to me that part of the color of the liver is probably this darkening effect of putting the donor and acceptor together and thinking about the the metabolic interactions of vitamin E and and progesterone vitamin E as the 1940s anti estrogen and some people in Italy called vitamin E the progesterone sparing material so it seemed very logical to combine them not only because it’s a perfect 03:41:19 solvent but because biologically they function together both of them stabilize and protect respiration and have the the anti estrogenic anti inflammatory effects and vitamin E has some very aspirin like effects in stopping the prostaglandin synthesis and so on getting back to your the helping people how has that evolved since over the years um several years ago the lawyers in california I think were put up to it by the estrogen 03:42:21 industry there was a mysterious three hundred thousand dollar grant to a women’s law group to go after people producing progesterone products this was 2005 right after the women’s health initiative in 2002 had shown that estrogen causes heart disease dementia and cancer and the prescriptions and profits from estrogen dropped off drastically by 2005 the industry was thinking of progesterone as a dangerous competitor and this california women’s law group got this big grant to go after sellers of progesterone and uh following that I I essentially stopped talking to people about progesterone because 03:43:25 the lawyers were suing people who had absolutely no claims made and no violation of any law but they saw that they could force people to settle knowing that lawyers were going to cost them 50 to 100 000 just to defend themselves they could essentially count on getting 50 000 at least as a settlement even if the person hadn’t violated any rules and so seeing the situation in which lawyers can’t be sued for a malicious prosecution of of a civil case they’re totally exempt and defended by the the lawyer establishment uh they’re they’re allowed to lie and and so on so I saw it as a situation that 03:44:33 simply made it impossible but besides someone earlier had sent my books to uh someone at the one of Ralph Nader’s organization someone had sent my books to a person at at this Nader group said uh can’t you people do something to get the establishment to shift its position on progesterone and that person was was like an estrogen soaked a devotee of of the pharmaceutical industry who turned all of my books over to the FDA and said these are all in violation of federal law by saying good things about progesterone and so I talked to people at the the FDA and they said there’s there’s a fine line between 03:45:40 violating federal law and having freedom of speech and we can’t tell you where the line is so I’ve been very careful about what I say about progesterone now for the last 10 years or so and just progesterone or are you careful in general about how you word things or amend I’m I’m always conscious of doing it in an information way and not not as a a recommendation or a sales pitch and so how do you then interact with people now like currently what’s the medium that you explain your knowledge periodically someone emails me that clearly 03:46:47 seems to have ulterior motives but my my procedure seems to so far have not appealed to lawyers to and and possibly because I don’t demonstrate a thriving business or income that would make it worth your file are you still currently receiving lots of emails from people asking for help you’ve mentioned when we talked to you on the phone originally that you were getting maybe hundreds a day um I think that was an extreme it goes up and down on workdays it’s always higher on weekends it drops off and so I guess people are writing from their work computers and I 03:47:51 usually try to answer a few dozen every day picking out like one guy a few days ago said here are a few dozen questions from my pathophysiology lab could you help me with things like that I ignore have you noticed a spike or noticed trends in besides the weekdays and weekends but over the years a growing number of people um I think it has tapered off over the last several months about a year ago that was when I was seeing 80 to 100 pretty regularly but now I haven’t counted them but it looks like more often it’s 30 or 40 what motivates you to spend the time to to answer everyone’s questions oh um 03:48:55 same as as talking to people who had come to visit I almost always learned something new uh and at least I catch on to uh the latest uh medical fad people people catch some concern and a dozen or 20 people will come down simultaneously with the same problem it was written about and I try to stereotype my answers to them to redirect their attention as far as possible what do you think about the the growing recent interests in your work I don’t know really what the condition is two or three years ago I looked at one of those site traffic 03:50:01 things and uh it seemed like a few people were looking at it every day but I haven’t checked to see what the traffic has been lately it’s increased a lot over the past like year yeah or just past couple years yeah maybe three starting about three four years ago uh a gentle slope but then in the last couple years oh it was I think just over a year ago that I was having uh too many book orders and so I I took off the ordering page and it took six months or so for the orders to drop off but I was not only running out of books but it was taking up a big part of my time to package and mail books 03:51:02 are you aware of of people who are translating your work and also trying to help and counsel people uh yeah there are three or four people that are doing a pretty good job how do you feel about that happening people taking translating your work um if they find useful stuff that’s what it’s for the I think the largest growing uh population is on Facebook there’s a couple groups they call them that pretty much mainly like discuss your work and how it connects to all sorts of different spheres of life very wide-ranging as wide-ranging as all of your uh someone sent me 20 20 questions from some group and uh so far I’ve answered 10 other questions yeah like um besides from Facebook 03:52:06 there’s forums as well there’s like a repeat forum there’s petarian then there’s people that think that there’s like a repeat diet there’s one site that I looked at that seemed to be uh basing a lot on my ideas he was really a witty person very entertaining site but I don’t remember he had sort of a Hindu sounding probably yeah he’s a guy in he’s actually just a Caucasian guy in England he’s British but he’s just really into yoga yeah and sort of connecting some of your ideas and the ideas of of co2 retention yeah the things I read seemed very funny and clever yeah he’s a brilliant guy yeah yeah he’s applied your um what he’s read from you on co2 into his like spiritual yoga practices 03:53:07 and reinterpreting the breathing exercises he’s learned from yoga and what’s like written in the Vedas about breathing and life and consciousness understanding that from the perspective of co2 I think changed things for him a lot I knew an Afghan yogi in Mexico who he was a model for our painting classes and he he didn’t need rests all the other models were given rests every 20 minutes but the professor would give the class a rest break after an hour and a half for something and and I would say there to talk to him during the break and got got sort of an insight into at least the Afghan yogi’s consciousness and he offered some techniques that I thought were 03:54:12 interesting and not especially breathing but using the the nerves and such yeah I just always wondered um what you thought about just the idea that people are basing like a diet that they caught they called the repeat diet even though you’ve never specifically outlined what something like that would be yeah I I don’t know what such a diet would consist of because when I had an income of ten dollars a month there was one thing powdered milk and potatoes were at the center but according to setting and your resources if you can import a cherim ways and tropical fruits and Italian cheese or Greek cheese 03:55:18 bend it’s one thing but trying to make out with the average supermarket you have other types of limitations right I think it sort of goes back to people feeling the need to have someone tell them what to do or have them prescribe a protocol um what do you think that means stems from um when I was teaching uh school uh in Urbana my first college teaching experience I would explain uh what what the course’s purpose was what my wishes would be and how I would my I saw my purpose as being there to support their exploration and uh about 10 or 15 percent 03:56:18 of any class always was really put off by that attitude they demanded uh prescribed something to learn they wanted me to tell them what they should know and every time I’ve I’ve had a big class there are always these people who are annoyed by the thought that they can decide what they need to know um you mentioned uh you have to be careful with that as there’s the potential to disable someone’s own internal guidance uh yeah the purpose of education is largely to uh disempower the students so that they depend on the system and become reliable uh in 1965 a professor at Oregon State I think a psychology or education professor 03:57:25 did a study of the academic success of I guess it was psychology majors and uh grafted according to their scores on the Miller analogies test did you ever see that it’s 100 questions each one uh I think four possible answers uh with uh purely analogical reasoning this is to that as that is to what and then you get to choose and so it measures your vocabulary but also your ability to reason analogically and every so many questions they change the type of analogy so it might be the the size or shape of the word or something for a while and so it requires 03:58:28 also flexibility and uh it it turns out to be a very quick and good test of general ability uh intelligence even heart rate and body temperature and such but this professor grafted according to their academic ranking uh the c-minus students up to the A students and so on and showed that up to the school’s median score on the Miller analogies which in in some like state universities I think the median score is usually around 45 out of 100 answers really a perfect vocabulary or reasoning or something but in rating it with grades academically the there was a direct correspondence from 03:59:38 the the lower range up to the A students which was right around the median score on the test and then as the score on the test went above the median the academic ranking dropped back to equivalent to the lowest scores so being too bright was as bad as being too stupid as far as academic success goes and that really confirmed the suspicion of many people that education is all about training in conformity and obedience and uh that you’re not going to be successful if you don’t know how to cover up what you know well the one other thing I guess I’d like to bring up is if you have anything else anything else brief to say about taking 04:00:41 you know your own health taking your health into your own hands I think is it seems to me that’s something that people who either haven’t had success in medicine or are motivated to experiment and and grow in that way seem attracted to your work um the um staying away from anything that doesn’t seem to be immediately rewarding I think is a good uh starting point that uh there is the medical doctrine that uh cures are going to be difficult chemotherapy might kill you but it’ll save you and uh the idea that you’re always going to get worse before you get better medicine is bitter and so on but uh I think people should be open 04:01:50 to the idea that maybe the the medicine is pleasant and that the reward is going to be instantaneous practically uh the first time I tried progesterone uh for a migraine I was in the middle of a horrible migraine because I had either stopped taking thyroid or I’d been in a place that had fluoridated water which inactivated the T3 I was taking and anyway in the in the middle of a horrible migraine twice I decided not to worry about the antihistosterone effects and so I took a big glob of it about a probably 100 milligrams of progesterone put it on my tongue went back to bed uh expecting to continue mourning by the time I got lying down in bed with my eyes closed I saw the the flashing turmoil suddenly getting quiet and velvety black 04:02:54 just about at that speed spreading out over my visual field and the sickness and headache faded as the smoothness got to the edge of my visual field the sickness and pain were about half gone and then I could feel something continuing to move at the same rate as as if it was completing the circuit of uh removing whatever the turmoil in my brain was a period of just about a minute from putting us in my mouth to being just absolutely peaceful and then going to sleep but sometimes just a big dose of sugar or aspirin can be almost as quick as that and with T3 when I was experimenting with a full dose 25 micrograms of T3 in the morning 04:03:54 uh it felt okay for a couple of weeks but then at sunset I I started noticing just as the sun was going down I would start having my heart stop for about three seconds at a time several about every 10 or 15 seconds and if there was a slight stress that would make it stop even longer and in one of those times when I was having very predictable every 10 seconds a stoppage I chewed up 10 micrograms of T3 and in I I estimate it was about 15 seconds from chewing it up my rhythm was perfectly straight no no skipping at all and uh I I tried that out on a couple of friends one guy in his 80s whose feet were rotting black holes into the bones of his toes 04:04:58 and the doctor said they would have to be amputated and he was soaking them in a a a antiseptic water bath and his pulse was doing the same thing mine was five or ten seconds of beating and then stopping for a while and coming back and I gave him some armor thyroid and not as quick as the T3 but it quickly brought his pulse rate up to a steady no skipping and two or three weeks later I visited him and he had his shoes on and was dressing up to to go out to his lodge and asked him how was his rotten feet were and he said what feet no symptoms but then he kept going back to his doctor and the doctor would told him he had to stop that stuff and we went through two or three episodes of rotten black feet and each time I would 04:06:02 impose on him to take his armor thyroid and the feet would recover just absolutely and perfectly one old guy who had been an acrobat and was very self-confident he was essentially blind and insisted on driving but he would do things like going down the wrong side of the street in Santa Monica on the way home and he reached the point where people convinced him not to drive but he couldn’t see the way around his apartment and so I gave him a handful of thyroid tablets in a dish by his chair and he couldn’t feel his feet at that time just a week later I came back and he was walking could feel his feet and could see enough to get 04:07:05 around and scare his friends by driving again so the the the matter of experimentation shouldn’t get you involved in like people tell me about trying the low carbohydrate diet for a year or the low fat or high fat or whatever diet for a year or two than ruining their health a week because more than enough I think for any experimental diet if you’re uncured in a week there’s something wrong great shall we I guess we should get to our b-roll okay so