Thinking Outside the Box - New Cancer Treatments

00:00 months, ask your herb doctor. My name is Andrew Murray. For those of you who perhaps have never listened to the shows which run every third Friday of the month from 7 to 8 p.m., we’re both licensed medical herbalists. We trained and graduated in England with a master’s degree in herbal medicine and we run a clinic in Garberville here in California where we consult with clients about a wide range of conditions and recommend herbal medicine and dietary advice. So you’re listening to ask your herb doctor on KMUD Garberville 91.1 FM and from 7.30 until the end of the show at 8 o’clock you’re invited to call in with any questions either related or unrelated to this month’s subject of thinking outside the box and the relevance of thinking outside the box is novel and new approaches to cancer treatment. Definitely thinking outside the box rather than a deterministic viewpoint of killing cancer cells. So number here if you live in the area is 9233911 or if you live outside the area the toll free number is 1-800-KMUD-RAD. So people that 01:07 listen to the show tonight who either have or know people who have diagnosis of cancer could be very relevant to those people listening and I’d encourage you to call in with any questions that you might want to put to either myself or Dr Pete about this month’s show. So cancer then has traditionally been viewed as something to destroy and to this end the mainstream of treatment is either what’s known as cytotoxic cell killing drugs which poison the body or this directed focused radiation which does no better. It’s all sidel that is it kills the cells directly with also the associated collateral damage and inflammation that comes from the treatment either widespread or localized. Now the evolution of thinkers who challenge dogma has always hailed new breakthroughs in our understanding and novel approaches to cancer treatment are also making themselves known. The co-discoverer and Nobel Prize winner James Watson recently made some 02:13 observations regarding cancer and its treatment and he’s have again been taken further and are very much outside the box theory has emerged and Dr Pete then he joins us in a moment here will be asking him for his viewpoint on it because he’s very much an outside the box thinker as most of you perhaps have tuned into him have recognized. Now most people are under the mistaken belief and myself included that antioxidants are always good for you in the diet the more the better. So but this is not true and sometimes these very antioxidants can fuel cancer metabolism. So again let’s have some lateral thinking here and get our heads around some of the I know it’s going to be a little bit heavy for some people perhaps if they’re not really science minded but Dr Pete will hopefully outline the questions that I put to him so far as the physiology 03:14 and the chemistry of the what we call the radox system in the body the reduction oxidation processes that are so important and necessary for regular cell functioning to to occur and then once we elucidate the radox activity within the body we can also understand better some of the novel approaches to cancer treatment. So what is it what what rather what it is that we thought we understood about cancer and antioxidants for example and in what context then does the latest understanding shed new light on the subject. So firstly Dr Pete thanks so much for joining us again. Hi Dr Pete. Hi I’m here. No problem okay so as always just to introduce yourself your professional academic background to give people who perhaps have never listened to you before an understanding of where your research merits are. Okay 1968 I had been studying more or 04:18 less independently biology and a lot of related fields but 1968 I decided to go to graduate school for a PhD and graduated there in 1972 specializing in reproductive aging and oxidative changes. And it was the oxidative metabolism that I saw changing with aging which was really against the grain already at that time. I saw an increase of reductive activity with aging. For example you can put a dye in young tissue and old tissue and reductive enzymes have fueled by the energy producing system and the internal antioxidant system is part of it. The older tissue 05:28 reduced the dye much more energetically looking like it was more alive. For example you can test vitality of any tissue by the intensity of staining of this tetrasolium chemical. And I found that an overdose of estrogen or deficiency of vitamin E or any serious injury such as x-rays will increase the ability of the tissue to stain this dye. So aging and these various injuries all increased the reductive activity of the tissue which involves what are called the anti-oxidative enzyme defense systems. And that was what got me interested in 06:29 the fact that cancer is very rich in anti-oxidative defenses not only the enzymes with a lot of specific chemicals that will act as antioxidants. At that time people were trying to identify the specific chemicals that cancers used to defend themselves against oxidative poisons, the chemotherapy and and radiation oxidative damage. But over the last 40 years it has developed that it isn’t just a simple chemical that they produce defensively but the very basic life processes are shifted in that direction which increases the reductive or anti-oxidative staining of this tetrasolium and dye just as an indicator that’s easy to see. 07:35 Okay so what caught my attention reading some of these articles recently was that there’s definitely a new novel way of looking at cells. I know you’ve mentioned this in the past prior to doing this show which is kind of more based on the new findings in the extracellular matrix as they call it and the fluidity within which cells are mobile and constantly in motion. I think it was always positive before that everything was fairly fixed and once a cell had differentiated it couldn’t do anything more its fate was sealed but actually the new theories and new studies are finding that there’s much more of a kind of quantum state going on where things are very fluid and cells very much communicate in two directions and are subject to and give instructions to other components in the body. So in terms of what they call this extracellular matrix in which the cells kind of 08:40 reside what implications does this have for understanding an approach to cancer treatment for example? Well the ridge had doctrine of the organism that governs current cancer therapy it really was imposed on a more basic biological view that started around 1830 with Johannes Mueller in Germany who described tumors as a problem of organization not of defective cells and that approach has continued through embryology right through the 1930s and 1940s in which people could dissociate an embryo or a primitive organism and show that the cells themselves could reconstruct the organism after it had been entirely separated. So the environment 09:50 that they live in is constantly being constructed to meet their needs. The cells have particular needs and they will change the environment to meet those needs if they have the energy and the resources. If for some reason a cell or an organ becomes isle it loses its sense of direction if there’s no stimulation and no energy flowing through the system the cell doesn’t have any particular occupation or knowledge of what it should be doing but ordinary cells everything else being ideal will if they see a defect in their environment they will reach out and correct the defect. 10:51 The extracellular matrix the main components are collagen for stiffness rigid linear molecules that twist around each other and in between those stiff collagen molecules there are carbohydrate chains polysaccharides and some with with proteins attached with some just simple polysaccharides with amino groups on them that retain water and create an elastic or springy environment against the pure hard environment of the pure collagen right system and cells prefer a certain rigidity of environment when you take an isolated cell and put it on a surface that varies in stiffness the cells will creep towards 11:59 the stiffer firmer footing they don’t like squishy things to sit on and if you inject broken down collagen fibers into an organism or a developing embryo the cells will rearrange the disorganized collagen that you have given them they’re sort of like brick layers they will align it in the direction they want and tug on it and communicate partly just by the the way they tug and the other cells sense the tugging and pull back and because they have an inherent knowledge of the structure in which they should be in yeah and and they they like it fairly solid but they can create more of the polysaccharide 12:59 so that it holds more water okay and is open and able to diffuse right things to feed them right so it has to be just right and there are various specific proteins that they secrete to attach themselves to do that pulling and pushing but there are some proteins at the surface which happen to be chemically connected and interactive with the very structure of the cell all the way through in a very coherent unifying way that the the sulfur and sulfhydryl system of the cell is is what gives it much of its toughness and it has to be constantly broken down and reformed because the cell inside is constantly in motion so you’re saying that 14:06 there’s a constant connection of sulfhydryl from the outside of the cell to the center of the cell yeah and about 40 years ago some experimenters found that if they blocked those surface sulfur groups the cell couldn’t stick to its environment so the the degree of reduction and oxidation of the surface sulfur groups it is a very big part of how it sticks to its environment and gets where it has to be and helps to shape its environment and that degree of oxidation is governed by what what has been called the antioxidant defense system okay all right you’re you’re listening to ask your doctor on k.m. de gaboval 91.1 f m and from 7 30 until the end of the show people are invited to call in with any questions they may have 15:07 regarding this month’s subject of thinking outside the box for cancer therapy and i dr p here in a bit here we’ll get into the specifics of how reduction oxidation works in cells and how the new new findings are showing that actually the the concept of antioxidants are not necessarily positive and how perhaps we can influence that system to be more beneficial towards resolving cancers also going to be bringing up a article a very interesting article that everyone can go to the internet and take a look at written by Mina Bissell on the programs called Ted Talks basically there’s a 15 minute talk on the architecture and context the form and function of the organization of the cell and how cancers are viewed in a different light now and she’s has some pretty exciting pretty exciting results so dr p in terms of the we’ve mentioned very briefly the the reduction in oxidation of cells or components of cells or molecules that are part 16:11 of say electron transport chain or modifying chemicals can you can you describe this how how this potential works in the matrix and how this can determine the outcome of disease and health i guess for making the simplistic consumption of antioxidants for example a bad choice perhaps for cancer strategy if you look at the the balance between oxidants and antioxidants or reductants in the cell many people think of it as a reducing environment or an anti oxidative environment but when you look at specific components such as the the molecule that transfers electrons from glucose for example to the mitochondrion to be oxidized nad is the coenzyme and it becomes reduced to nad age which is the source of the antioxidant electrons and 17:20 if you look at the healthy cell the ratio of the oxidized form is hundreds of times the reduced form is about 500 or more times the did i say that from the oxidized form is 500 times greater than the reduced form and so that that’s the governing antioxidant is the oxidized form in a highly oxidized state and that is in balance with a ascorbic acid and coenzyme q10 and vitamin e and the sulfur system glutathione and glutathione disulfide these are all energized by the the electron from nad age which comes from glucose 18:24 normally and so the cell normally is in this really highly oxidized state is determined by the ratio of nad to nad age and if the cell is sick for example a cancer cell the ratio approaches one to one there it’s almost 50 percent in the reduced antioxidant state and if you injure a cell you turn on this signaling system that james watson talked about as one of the problems that he says people are looking for some way to turn that off so you don’t keep pushing the cell in the direction of too much reduction but in fact anything that irritates the cell is likely to turn on 19:26 more of the reducing system and push it in that direction of stress or cancer with a high ratio of nad age to nad approaching one to one but you’re saying that you want it in a oxidized form you want the cell not to have access to antioxidant activity yeah the healthy active cell has about 500 times more oxidized nad and when the people who are selling their very powerful antioxidants a lot of the advertisements say it’s many times more powerful than vitamin c or than vitamin e but what they’re doing is testing the antioxidants in vitro in a test tube and they will attack and destroy the oxidizing fragments free radicals but it happens that 20:30 just like the nad nad age couple which is highly oxidized the things in balance with that ascorbic acid vitamin e for example inside the cell they become oxidized the de hydro ascorbic acid is an oxidant and it’s eight times more concentrated in the cell than outside it’s relatively hydrophobic and it goes to the oily parts of the cell so that will itself break down an antioxidant from on the outside of the cell um yeah it it uh when you’re uh irritating the cell and turning on the the defensive antioxidant reductive systems and producing a lot of the fragments that reduce glutathione the one of the sulfur molecules that that exchanges throughout the system when the cell 21:37 is irritated that and the associated ascorbic acid which becomes reduced and the vitamin e which becomes reduced these will stop up the the toxic fragments but the trouble is that the the system which normally should be oxidized always through the ascorbic acid vitamin c vitamin e uh coenzyme q10 and so on these the whole system gets stuck in an over reduced over electrified or not enough oxidation going on to pull it back where it should be and since the 1930s people have seen that any cell which is dividing goes into this highly reduced state in which everything shifts to the uh sulfhydryl rather than the disulfide form 22:39 okay and this includes the cancer cells then uh yeah and uh normal cells go into this phase very quickly divide and then return to their oxidized state right and the uh the vitamin e and vitamin c go back to becoming oxidized and keeping the system tightened up helping to squeeze water out of the system and the the balance where the uh the membrane potential of a cell is normally around 100 millivolts difference when you measure it with an electrode stuck into it the uh redox difference is in a range of about 15 millivolts a very small fraction of the energy which is available for reduction if you measure the voltage between 23:43 uh glucose and oxygen it’s over a volt so it’s about a hundred times more than the difference of 15 millivolts which uh governs practically all of the reactions in the cell the enzymes which produce energy uh synthesize protein which govern the the economy of the cell these are sensitive to being reduced uh or oxidized and so this 15 millivolts difference can shift the whole right the economy of the cell i suppose a pretty tight range within which normality exists yeah and when you measure the uh the products such as pyruvic acid versus lactic acid these are an excreted or easily extracted index of the oxidative or reductive state of the cell and so when the cell is in trouble it turns pyruvic acid into lactic acid 24:49 by reducing it so that’s a reflection of the highly reduced antioxidant state when the cell is distressed and making lactic acid right when oxygen is working properly it’s not producing lactic acid it’s using consuming the uh pyruvic acid turning it into carbon dioxide so the ratio between not only pyruvic acid and lactic acid but overall it would be between lactic acid versus carbon dioxide okay carbon dioxide is an acid and uh so in in a sense it’s an oxidant it causes retraction of electrons because the uh the the fundamental here is basically mopping up electrons yeah yeah so okay so let me let me ask you this the um reactive oxygen species okay so a group of molecules governed electrically the the anti the antioxidant system versus the 25:58 reactive oxygen species system um in in terms of inflammation and what free radicals i think i as i’ve understood free radical damage to be a result of you know free radical liberation that isn’t mopped up by antioxidants is it is it almost that free radicals are almost i can i always think of free radicals now as being a little more beneficial than the anti-oxidants because they uh that’s um a watson’s interpretation but i think that’s not correct his 50 years as a reductionist when he comes out of the uh the static mechanical view of genetics and looks at the metabolism of the cell he tends to uh over concretize and the anti-oxidant system is 26:59 uh doing good stuff defending against toxic free radicals but uh the oxidative normal functions involving ascorbic acid or dehydra ascorbate and vitamin e and uh the uh sulfhydro balancing system uh those are able to control the system that he suggests uh the toxic free radicals would be doing right and so you can get both both the uh good defensive process against free radicals and and the uh limiting of the the production of of more free radicals without resorting to one of the toxic chemicals that he’s suggesting right because you’re right you’re you’re advocating and i know you have not just felt the subject in hand but in in general as a good health practice from advocating plenty of fruit consumption for example 28:03 you advocate vitamin c and vitamin e as very safe and gentle relatively gentle in their anti-oxidant capacity to some of the um products i know they’ve been mentioned you talk about the super antioxidants that are touted on the supplement market that people may want to can may have consumed or may have thought were a good thing but in general vitamin c and vitamin e are very safe and they do the work very effectively that’s because they are electrically tuned to exactly a certain role or group of roles in the cell and uh if you put in a dynamite instead of alcohol you can have the same overall energy expense but it isn’t under control and some of the antioxidants that they’re selling are more like dynamite don’t fit into the system and and so they they aren’t helpful at all and when the the good antioxidants are working properly 29:09 the system can run as fast as it wants practically oxidizing at full speed and there are examples of experiments in which as you add thyroid hormone or a chemical that uncouples the uh production of ATP from simply the burning of oxygen and fuel as you rev up the oxidizing process you get fewer and fewer free radical productions so okay because you normally associate free radical production with that yeah and so the the good antioxidants are working with the mitochondria safely and the faster that system runs the fewer electrons get away to cause the dangerous free radicals so this is a bit like the aerobic versus anaerobic glycolysis and its effects uh yeah yeah the uh when the cell gets out 30:17 of control uh it oxygen is no longer able to suck up the electrons and so the cell has to expel the electrons in the form of lactic acid and that’s a survival mechanism but it happens that when you do that uh the uh desperate production of lactic acid to draw off excess electrons it happens to raise the pH inside the cell and lower the pH outside the cell and i think it was the embryologist holt freighter who demonstrated that if you put an embryo in a slightly acidified solution the cells simply leave the embryo and float off and do their own okay and so the cancer or the stress metabolism acidifying outside the cell is tending to destroy the the cell’s connection to its environment and at the same time 31:23 raising the pH inside the cell makes it swell up take up water and shifts the uh self-hydro balance into the reduced state and tends to turn on constant cell diffusion okay well i guess before we get into the uh uh danopoulos uh previous experiments and research with urea for the treatment of cancers including that of liver cancer um i i know that from their oxidant versus antioxidant perspective that um exercise in its own right then generates sufficient biological oxidants which could be perhaps used as a valid approach to diabetes cardiovascular disease in some cancers and i’ve seen that there is some research to support that that they exercise especially for diabetes but um in some instances for cardiovascular disease and cancer is actually fairly pertinent um the exercise will cause cells to take up 32:25 glucose in the absence of insulin and will make them operate effectively but just like the uncoupling protein or the increased thyroid these are the the cells equivalent of exercise so that when everything is is working in an organized way the cells are exercising by simply burning oxygen and fuel and warming themselves up so exercise should keep everything active but when when it doesn’t the organism can defend itself and imitate exercise by running things at a higher speed okay all right you’re listening to ask Europe doctor on k medial of 91.1 fm from now until the end of the show at 8 o’clock invite call is invited to call him with any questions they have hopefully surrounding tonight’s subject of 33:31 novel approaches to cancer so like i said at the beginning of the show we’re hopefully going to get into a little bit later on about liver cancer and some of the work done by a pioneering doctor back in the 80s which is still relevant today concerning urea therapy the number if you live in the area is 9233 911 or if you live outside the area there’s an 800 number which is 1800 k m ud rad okay so doc can i just get in there quickly we got a call since the top of the hour someone called to say there are two loose friendly brown and white pit bulls running loose on Branscom road between number 2015 and Laytonville and this phone call just came in so if those might be your dogs running loose on Branscom road two brown and white pit bulls and folks want you to know they’re out running loose thanks so dr p i i i looked earlier on at that uh 15 minute well i wasn’t a podcast but it was a video basically the ted talks that mean abyssal presented 34:32 it’s a very interesting work that she was doing and quite quite amazing where the she had shown that the the context and the architecture of the cell was very much the governing force behind whether or not cancers were present and i know uh from your what you’re mentioning earlier on about the extracellular matrix of the uh you know the whole solution around the cell within the cells all very fluid the cytoskeleton is all starts from the outside and works its way in its constant and the energy that should be present within a healthy cell uh gives the potential to signal and allow changes to happen so that everything’s ordered now what she was what she was bringing up was i think she was specializing in breast cancer and she showed that the clip during the 15 minute speech that she gave about the the duct cell one of the duct cells that secretes milk it was a pre a pre pre cancerous stage and then the cancerous stage and then she basically 35:37 proved that it could be the cancerous cell could get turned back to its normal state not by poisoning it or radiating it but by allowing the extracellular matrix in which it was growing to be normalized and i know this is an approach that you’re um positing now as a novel way of approaching a disease in general not just cancers but other diseases of that it’s more of a functional uh disorganization of the environment in which the cells operate that is the cause rather than the cells themselves becoming mutant or aberrant or just losing their program or whatever is popular vogue theory for you know health the exercise uh idea is very relevant to a breast cancer you’ve probably heard the statistics that women who are constantly having babies and nursing through their whole fertile years have a very low risk of breast cancer right right and so what 36:41 is working keeps working and the cells which are have a load and a job to do are keeping their extracellular matrix organized right to support what they’re doing do we we do have a call and i want to get this call off very quickly but i do also want to ask you whether or not how how much credence do you think the uh high exposure to progesterone during pregnancy has on that fact that they have very low incidence of breast cancer do you do how much of that part do you think it plays um i think that’s the main thing it erases for example looking at the connective tissue like the tendons which are almost pure connective tissue if you expose an a rabbit for example to estrogen the connective tissue such as the tendon becomes stiff and hardened and every time it becomes 37:44 pregnant and the estrogen goes up you see a shift momentarily towards hardening but after each pregnancy it’s less hardened than before and it’s the progesterone which reverses those changes even in the connective tissue the extracellular matrix and it’s also erasing the intracellular estrogen functions the synthesis of estrogen the failure to detoxify it and tendency to find that all of these are regulated by progesterone as an anti-estrogen good okay well let’s get this caller then and see see see where this caller’s question is going hi caller you’re on the air and where you’re from hi dr p and andrew you and i have spoken over computer stuff and my question is um i was born with some interesting genetics and i’ve always wondered how it happened 38:48 that i was born from two eggs and i have a lot of things because of that uh both genders because of that and i wondered how how did that happen dr p i think uh i think your well one moment caller i think your condition is chimerism isn’t it you’re you’re you are a chimer as far as i remember i don’t know i think the caller might have hung up actually but dr p chimer is i think they’re extremely rare in the population um yeah the embryologists have made them and uh you can that that’s one of the early demonstrations that mutations uh aren’t the cause of cancer somatic mutation theory uh was made defunct 40 years ago when someone took a cell from a tumor and stuck it in an early embryo the tumor came from i think it was a black hamster and they 39:53 put it in the embryo from a white hamster both of its parents were white and the developing organism had four parents it was a mixture of white and black inheritance showing that what had been a cancer cell uh developed into an ordinary part of the organism and that’s the sort of thing that on a more highly differentiated tissue that mean abyssal is demonstrating that it’s the environment not the genes which make a cancer so what do you do do you have any uh do you have anything to say about chimer is in the human population and how how they how they come about or how uh how um yeah how rare we know they’re rare oh i i think they’re probably not as 40:55 extremely rare as one would suppose because the uh the the early embryos if they happen to get too close it’s very easy for them to mix and form one one organism because people can have two two or more blood types their red blood cells can express the uh the markers for you know o positive and uh rhesus rhesus groups or b that could be b rhesus negative in the same person just a yeah i found that quite fascinating then okay well let’s let’s let’s move on then um so oh look out i think there’s another caller let’s let’s take this next caller before we move on high caller you’re on the air where you’re from yeah i can barely hear you for some reason can you hear me yeah yeah i can hear you fine but you yeah i can hear you fine you’re saying that you can’t hello i can hear you because yeah i can hear 42:00 you oh well maybe that caller should call back in again if they’ve hung up um yeah okay i think this is some part of what will hopefully get uh resolved we did have another caller who uh really wanted to ask dr pete something if i could use this opportunity he wanted to know about low-carb diets uh the fat burning ketone diet and specifically he said it’s uh helped him quite a bit he wanted to know what dr pete thought about that the ketone diet yeah what do you think of that dr pete um you don’t produce the ketones unless you’re uh raising your cortisol enough to activate the conversion of protein into the ketones uh to activate the conversion of protein into glucose at the the same time you’re uh turning some of the fat into ketones so it’s a pretty stressful 43:01 yeah and i think the problem occurs over a few years of exposure to that uh increased breakdown of protein uh the the cortisol is affecting your connective tissues and uh the um explorer i don’t remember his name at the moment uh arctic explorer who uh advocated the meat diet he noticed that uh the eskimos were very prematurely aged in appearance their skin uh became very wrinkled and i think that’s what you would expect from being exposed to very high cortisol constantly right so the key ketone diets are a pretty stressful way to do anything like lose weight and losing weight in general is not a very good idea unless it’s done slowly especially in people that have lots of stored polyunsaturates 44:04 in their fat makeup which is most people unless they’re really watching what they eat and avoiding polyunsaturates and making sure they consume lots of saturated fats actually it’s a very yeah i want to make a very quick point here i was back in england uh three weeks ago for a couple of weeks and on my way out of the airport i grabbed a couple of uh periodicals to read while i was on the plane i got a new scientific and i got the daily telegraph and um on the cover of the new scientist it had a picture of a frying pan and the word f a c t the c was a piece of carbonized bacon and the f and the a and the t of the word fact was still intact and it’s so what you saw was fat with a carbonized piece of bacon forming the c but it was blackened against the black background of the frying pan and it said have we really got 40 years of dietary advice wrong and it was actually a good breath of fresh air another one of the breaths that hopefully wake people up enough when they get enough these fresh breaths coming in that to say that um they 45:05 were very much behind especially dairy saturated fat and that all saturated fat in general was very good for you and that the polyunsaturates and the margarines and officials were actually being shown now to turn be turned on their head and they were actually saying yep we think we’ve got 40 years of dietary advice wrong so that was good to see and then the other sad point i did see in the daily telegraph was that in england they’re now running gm crops and i when i left england in 2001 they were actually europe was all gmo free uh so now in england they’re actually making a gmo crop to express omega three oils so that they can feed this crop to gm salmon that are grown in the environment that doesn’t allow them to pick up the uh the the polyunsaturate from the algae and the microorganisms that they eat so they’re now going to feed them a gm crop expressing omega threes i can’t believe it so not too sure what’s happening folks but i know california is still on the cutting edge i think of trying to see sideways here with our food and environment 46:09 and everything else that’s going on so hopefully between the west coast and the east coast of the states we can keep this kind of thing going and alive so anyway dr peter wanted to bring up dr danopoulos’s work with urea therapy from the 80s i know i had a a caller some time ago that i’ve got personally who was looking for some help and information regarding liver cancer and i know danopoulos had done quite a bit of work in 1980 publishing clinical oncology about an 11 year experience using oral urea treatment in liver made liquidities um how much how familiar are you with um urea as a as a compound for the treatment of carcinomas or other you know cancers in the first world war it was used uh as an emergency treatment to stimulate healing in wounds hold down infections and uh around the time 1920s i think it was uh often used for inoperable 47:14 cancer to pack it with urea to uh it actually was not only keeping down infection but uh i think it was actually having a healing influence and the effect of forming lactic acid that i mentioned right which causes the uh ph of the cell to become more alkaline inside uh that causes swelling and swelling promotes uh replication proliferation and uh simply an osmotic environment which could be uh very concentrated sodium chloride or urea happens to be a very innocuous substance uh it doesn’t exactly have an osmotic effect like sodium chloride because the the sodium is kept out of the cell but the urea 48:19 acts somewhat like an osmotic uh dehydrator it helps to prevent uh excess swelling and water retentions you think that’s one of its main effects and that’s how it’s keeping swelling down i i think so okay and the um dehydrated cell uh becomes more oxidatively active and catabolic burning fuel faster where the swollen cell is anabolic and uh simply growing and dividing so many things can help to reduce that water retention i think urea would work well with a good thyroid program which helps you to retain the normal amount of sodium chloride hypothyroid people not only produce the 49:21 matrix which is overhydrated it shifts the the cells so they produce molecules that hold water outside of cells but the low thyroid function lets your kidneys lose sodium while retaining water and uh so any of the osmotic therapies such as urea i think would work nicely with uh supplementing thyroid to normalize the the sodium retention good all right we do have a i think we have a couple of callers on on the air so i should start by taking one of these the first caller you’re on the air caller where you’re from this is uh david back the caller we had earlier who’s having trouble okay hey david go ahead hello yeah hi hello hello yeah look out engineering what’s going on i don’t understand he can hear me 50:22 when i talk to him we can hear him can you hear me now i can hear you i’ve we can hear you find david okay uh so i guess i can hear you now hopefully are we okay can you hear me david or not okay sorry about that he can’t hear me so you’re gonna have to relay this i think dr p yes yes i have you know and this is i guess a little off topic but in a way it’s not when you’re describing these processes i mean you do it so beautifully and i it it it seems very complicated but are you actually seeing images like do you actually see these processes and i know of course a lot of this probably is not has not been photographed through microscopic techniques and different things so are you just in a way yeah into all this information and seeing things i i see little models not that i not that i’ve seen anything 51:27 exactly like it but i have mental models for example of uh the extension of the sulfhydryl groups under the surface of the of a cell i i have very concrete pictures of how that works and so it helps me when i’m looking for information to uh check against the the published research facts to to have a concrete mental image and the reason i’m asking that question is you were explaining like the collagen lining up and all and and a lot of times when i’m reading your work i’m i’m i’m i find myself trying to imagine these things and then i’m thinking that’s gotta be an important part of your process in trying to imagine since you’re a painter visual images of how this actually might look is that true oh oh sure yeah i’ve always uh been aware of having them a map of where i’m going and i was surprised in graduate school 52:28 when a psychology professor was surprised at my description and i asked him how he had found his way from his home to his office and he said go out the front door turn left turn left again turn right it was all set up rules and i think some professorial types actually think in terms of of words and rules yeah definitely you know and i the other thing i i thought about in line with with uh you know the like almost visualizations of how this works is you know through the years i’ve heard of different healers and and people that you know are more new agey kind of things where they try to get people to imagine certain things and then try to heal up but then i started thinking if you were really seeing this like you’re seeing it you really could in a way uh be a part of the healing process and that you’re you’re seeing what’s wrong 53:30 and you’re seeing what you need to do to fix it you know i mean we were talking about the uh the different theories of what a cancer is at at the uh the new theory it’s called uh tough tissue organization field theory and i think that needs another adjective uh organismic it isn’t just the uh the local tissue organization but it’s also the the way that tissue fits into the whole organism and how the activity of your organism keeps everything working uh loading all of its parts so that they know what they’re doing it’s very it’s very much the and i don’t want to make a quip here but it’s very much the holistic way of looking at it and that’s what i found was so interesting with uh even though men have been totally accurate dr watson’s uh comments uh that were made earlier and also this kind of novel approach to cancer 54:35 treatment through the looking at the extracellular matrix there’s very much a holistic environment upon which every cell is in communication with every other cell stem cells are arising over time and actually nothing is fixed everything is very fluid and dynamic and very much uh very much able to change very quickly individual cells for example pigment cells you can sometimes see them migrating through the tissue and they move at the same rate that cells have been found to be able to crawl on a glass slide and that that body temperature that can be something like a centimeter and a half per day a very tiny cell really zips along through the solid tissue far out well listen i i think we better probably wrap there’s two quarters on the air but we’re not going to be able to take them unfortunately it’s three minutes to the top of the hour and once again we kind of run out of time but let me just let people know how to 55:41 find out more about you dr pete and thanks so much for joining okay thank you okay so once again unfortunately sorry for those callers who perhaps wanted to ask questions but didn’t manage to get through in time dr ray pete is a wealth of experience and a wealth of resources available and freely shared on the internet his website is www.raypete.com most of his well all of his articles not most but all of his articles are referenced so it’s not just his opinion what he’s read what he thinks there’s lots of references to the to the work that’s been done pioneering work by people that unfortunately we don’t hear often enough that and don’t make the mainstream but there are times when people people like me and abyssal and all the other people that dr pete just brings to the show in terms of the pioneers that have done the work that we’re talking about very much make the 56:43 contributions that are thinking outside the box and it’s that thinking outside the box that really fundamentally changes everything from what we do to what we eat and the whole quantum mechanics thing is also another very exciting field that’s making the seemingly impossible possible so well yeah go take a look at his website there’s lots of articles ranging from our diabetes to saturated fats versus polyunsaturated cancer dementia inflammation thyroid specialties are hormones reproductive hormones and aging hormones so very interesting work there lots of it’s very scientific but it’s also very readable for those of you who have joined us this evening thanks so much for listening until the third friday of next month we can be reached toll free one eight eight eight wbm herb for any questions regular business hours nine to five until september the third september of next month uh good night 58:13 you